Moggy Modifications

Post by **Donaldduck** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 3:57 pm

I Have a 1963 Morris minor custom pick-up (as some of you may know) and I wish to make some modifications but it will take time and money (lots of money). I am wanting to put in a metro/marina 1300 engine with a

Stage 4, 8 port head with 4 Weber carbs,
Custom exhaust,
Balanced crank,
Lightened flywheel,
High-lift cam,
1.3 ratio rockers,
Tungsten timing chain,
Up rated oil pump with adjustable oil pressure by-pass valve...

Could any one tell me what g-box/diff to use?

Any other advice into tuning my mog will be greatly appreciated

Post by **Cam** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 5:59 pm

DonaldDuck,

With your choice of:

Stage 4, 8 port head with 4 Weber carbs,
Custom exhaust,
Balanced crank,
Lightened flywheel,
High-lift cam,
1.3 ratio rockers,
Tungsten timing chain,
Up rated oil pump with adjustable oil pressure by-pass valve...

Could any one tell me what g-box/diff to use?

I would use (and have) the Ford Sierra 5-speed gearbox, it has a nice gear selection and is more than strong enough to take the power from your engine, plus they are reasonably cheap, and parts are readily available. You will have to use a Ford clutch mated to a modified Minor flywheel (which will have the effect of being lightened)

I suggest that you start with an Ital block (for strength), bore it out to 1380cc, have the crank balanced and nitrided / tuftrided, fit race bearings, have the rods balanced, fit some decent (£250-£300) Omega pistons.

If you want a sprinter, fit a Kent 286 cam, if it is for fast road / sprint use then fit a Kent 276, if it's for commuting with a bit of extra poke then fit a Kent 266.

Up rated oil pump with adjustable oil pressure by-pass valve...

Very little point in fitting one of these. The A-Series responds well to about 60 PSI, which a new factory oil pressure valve supplies. All the racers set their adjustable ones to 60 PSI anyway.

With regard to the pump, get a slightly uprated one, but don't go mad as it will not be any better and will just sap BHP turning it.

Go for the 1.3 roller tipped rockers, as the full roller rockers are not worth the money and the roller tipped rockers give 99% of the performance of the full rockers, but for a lot less money.

I have the following spec in my '69 saloon with some quite pleasing results:

MED 1380 Road Competition Engine
Fully machined and prepared A+ Morris Ital block.
Reground and tuftrided crankshaft.
Omega 73.5mm 11cc dished pistons.
Kent 276 duration camshaft with Kent followers.
Duplex timing gears and chain.
High capacity oil pump.
Competition bearing set.
Modified Minor flywheel assembly with new clutch cover and plate.
Fully balanced.
10:1 Compression ratio.

Minor engine front plate.
Modified engine back plate to suit modified Midget clutch bell housing.
Lucas 45D4 distributor with Aldon Ignitor electronic ignition.

MED Road Competition Head
Fully modified (Ported & Gas flowed).
21NS Stainless Steel 37mm Inlet & 31mm Exhaust valves.
Silicon valve guides.
New double springs (Cooper 'S' type).
19.5cc Chambers.
New Ital rocker assembly

NGK BP8ES Spark Plugs.
Single 1 3/4" (HIF 44) S.U. Carburetor with BBZ Needle.
M.G. Metro inlet manifold.
K&N cone type air filter.

You will also need to uprate the rear axle, as the standard one will only take about 70 BHP, so a Ford Escort MK2 axle is a good choice, as it is virtually identical in track, and will take about 170 BHP.

Any more specific questions, I will be only too pleased to answer.

Post by **Willie** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 6:39 pm

Crikey CAM,thats a bit vague!! Stop pussy footing around and
give him some details!!...................brilliant.

Post by **Chris Morley** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:32 pm

Cam,

Speaking as a man who would be very grateful

for an extra 10 bhp, all these mods sound most impressive.

Quote:
"I have the following spec in my '69 saloon with some quite pleasing results:"

What are we talking in terms of performance (BHP, 0-60, top speed, rpm at 70mph)???

Post by **Cam** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:27 pm

Chris,

When I have the correct dizzy installed (Aldon Yellow), it should be good for about 120 BHP at 7,000 RPM.

I should expect the 0-60 to be in the region of 9 seconds, but that's just a guess. I had a 1293cc engine with my cylinder head in a mini, with a less potent cam, and the engine kicking out about 85-90 BHP and that did 0-60 in 9 seconds, so given that the moggy is a bit heavier, and that this engine has a hotter cam and a possible 30-35 BHP more, I expect it to be about the same or slightly better.

The top speed is geared to be 130 MPH (with a 4.44:1 diff), but I have not gone past about 110 - 120 MPH (calculated from the revs - 6500 in 5th) or 'needle reading in the fuel gauge' - I suppose with a neutral wind, it should be possible to get it up to 130, but I don't fancy trying!!

Below is a table of my speed capability, calculated from the engine rpm, gearbox & diff ratios, as well as the rolling radius of my rear wheels (14" 185/60) for 3rd, 4th and 5th gears.

RPM (3rd) (4th) (5th)
2000 22 30 37
2500 28 38 46
3000 33 46 56
3500 39 53 65
4000 44 61 74
4500 50 69 84
5000 56 76 93
5500 61 84 102
6000 67 91 112
6500 72 99 121
7000 78 107 130

I tried a taller diff (3.89:1) but it gave an un-realistic top speed, which the engine has not got the torque to achieve, so I settled for the 4.44:1 which gives a good acceleration.

But it's not about top speed, it's about ACCELERATION!!!

p.s. don't think that just because I have a Sierra gearbox, I have to have a Sierra gearlever, oh no. Because they look poo. I cut and welded the bottom of the Sierra stick to the Moggy stick, sanded it smooth and painted it black, so the interior looks absolutely standard, except for a few extra dials and gauges, tastefully mounted in a home-made body colour panel, mounted where the driver's glove box usually goes, so there!!

Post by **Donaldduck** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 12:09 am

Thank you very much cam all this information is very useful. just a couple of things, what dizzy would u say is the best and what would the total cost be about?

And thanks again

Post by **Cam** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 2:47 am

For the spec I listed above, I would say that the Aldon AYPV dizzy has the right characteristics. a non-vaccum advance unit would do the job, but the vaccum unit would give a bit extra mileage in terms of economy. Plus you would fit the Aldon Ignitor electronic ignition unit while you were at it.

You could always get your engine ignition profiled and have a distributer built to your exact requirements but that would cost a fair bit, and besides, the Aldon dizzy has got an advance curve pretty close to what you would need anyway, so it's probably not worth getting a custom one built in terms of extra BHP.

For the entire engine (dressed) you are looking at approximately £1500 - £2000.

But don't forget the additional cost of the gearbox and conversion parts (approx £700-£800), and the rear axle, together with the much needed suspension upgrades could cost well in excess of £1500, plus disc brakes, another £350.

Plus the price of your fuelling system and carb(s) which could be well in excess of £300.

Soon mounts up!!

Post by **Chris Morley** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:48 pm

Hmmm... nearly £4000 all in + many weeks of work? Looks like I'll have to stick to a meagre 48 bhp unless my lottery numbers come up. Still, I bet Cam drives around with a wide grin as he leaves the local boy racers standing!

Now I would cough up a few hundred quid to get that extra 10 bhp and the necessary grunt to out-accelerate commercial vans. Could any of the mini-specialists help out at that price?

Post by **Cam** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 2:42 am

Chris,

Best bet is to get a HS4 carb from a Mini in the scrapyard (£15) and put a AAM needle in it ( £8 ).

Buy a water heated alloy inlet manifold from a mini specialist (£35) + a K&N cone filter. (£39)

Then get a 3-branch LCB manifold (£90) and complete larger bore stainless steel exhaust system from a Minor specialist (£117).

and 'robert's your father's brother' you have a stage 1 tuning kit!!

And all for £304 including VAT.
Prices from Minisport and Morris Minor Centre in Birmingham.

That should give you approximately 10 BHP extra when set up properly.
When I had one on my mini 1000, it did the 1/4 mile at Santa Pod raceway in 20.4 seconds!! not bad for an otherwise standard 998cc mini.

It's worth doing if you have a spare £300, as the engine breathes a lot easier and seems less stressed, and you can really feel the difference.

I fitted one to my Minor before I installed the 1380 and it was definately better for it!!

Post by **rayofleamington** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:22 pm

Hi Chris,
Well we're stealing someon else's thread here but while we're here...
Do you have a 1098?
£300 sounds sensible for all those mods but if you're canny and want a cheaper way, you could patrol the scrapyards for a big valve head that will fit a 1098 block (£25 ish). Add to that a marina carb and manifold (£20 second hand). Then ë bigger bore pipe to fit the manifold.
All in £100 to £150 but does take some scrapyard patrolling. (presuming you have a 1098 engine, as you'll struggle to get a better head to fit the 948)
I'm not sure on BHP but my first Minor had that set up and it flew.

This set-up was also recommended by Lionellength on another thread:

http://test.mmoc.org.uk/modules.php?op= ... opic&t=858

Post by **Chris Morley** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:05 am

Thanks to Ray & Cam for the advice. Yes, it's a 1969 1098 2 door. In fact the 1098 engine is quite lively as it is (except when starting cold) but the extra grunt would give more options when driving in traffic.

To be honest 48 bhp is adequate as long as you use the gears and I don't think of the Minor as a slow car. I will probably explore both upgrade options sooner or later as I was thinking of fitting a Stainless Steel exhaust when the current one disintegrates. Hopfully my insurance quote will be unaffected by a modest increase in BHP.

Apologies to DonaldDuck for hi-jacking his thread!

Post by **Cam** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 10:21 am

Ray,

The only reason I did not go down the head route, is that a lot of people want an easy option when they are tuning for the first time, so my suggestion was the easy bolt ons. A lot of people tend to run away scared when taking the head off is mentioned. Plus you do have to have a bit of knowledge when looking for the right big valve head to fit to a small block A-series, as some will not fit, as I'm sure you know.

So, I just thought an easy option was easier!!!

Actually, you could probably find a mini with an alloy inlet manifold, HS4 SU and a K&N filter already fitted in the scrap yard nowadays, as these mods have been used on the older minis now for years.

Post by **Peetee** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 8:24 pm

I am in the process of gathering together a buch of bits to add a bit of spice to my 1098. It is running a 948 diff so gets a bit harsh at higher speeds.
On Dave Vizards advice (Tuning the A-Series Engine) I have sourced a K&N, 1.5" SU, Alloy manifold and, thanks to some nifty bidding on e-bay an unused 12G295 head (yes it was me!!

). all I need now is a cast exhaust manifold to fit to a standard bore stainless exhaust and I can put some time aside to bolt it all together.
Roll on the longer evenings

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 8:43 pm

Well done Peetee - I remember a 12G295 head on E-bay and wondered what car it would end up on. How much was it in the end?

Hi Cam - I wasn't suggesting any fault in your suggestion, just another option ;-). My use of the word 'canny' was meant to imply that is was not neccessarily straightforward... maybe a bit too subtle, but that's what I meant.

Any yes, there's probably even plenty of mini's gone to the tat yard with stage 2 heads and fancy carbs... I used to love scrapyard trolling when I was 18 - but it doesn't seem to have the same attraction now that I have the choice and so much less time.

Post by **Cam** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 9:53 am

My use of the word 'canny' was meant to imply that is was not neccessarily straightforward

Oh, I see, I thought it was the Newcastle-Upon-Tyne version meaning 'good'.

I used to love scrapyard trolling when I was 18 - but it doesn't seem to have the same attraction now that I have the choice and so much less time.

Ha Ha, glad it's not just me!!! It must be an age thing. Have you noticed that it's no fun lying on a cold concrete floor anymore??

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 10:24 am

Sorry but I have to ask Cam but when was it fun to lay on a cold concrete floor, is it a Staffordshire trait

because down here in the soft South

( Watford ) its just regarded as an occasional necessary evil

Post by **Cam** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:28 am

Kevin,

Being a northern monkey (well midlander - soft monkey??), when we are young, enthusiasm overtakes sense and sensation, so we love getting into the job regardless of what's happening to us!!

I remember torqueing a mini head in a snowstorm while sliding around on the ice on the ground, and having to wedge myself against the car so that I could apply the torque!!

Years ago, it did not matter what the weather was doing, but now it REALLY DOES!!!!

Post by **rayofleamington** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:01 pm

no fun lying on a cold concrete floor anymore??

I noticed that most when I had broken ribs... I guess I've got a bit old for motorcross accidents ;-) I couldn't lie on the garage floor for 4 months, as I re-broke the ribs at work, then hayfever took over and they didn't heal due to the sneezing. I hated it as I couldn't get the car MOT'd until the floor was welded, and missed a few 'promised' weekends away in it

Seriously though - I don't think it's age. It's more choice for me as I could just buy another car rather than endure an icy garage floor.
I compromise on using a convector heater to take the chill off the air.... and dream of having a double brick insulated garage rather than my draughty wooden one.
Pesently I need to find a car roller, otherwise I'll be selling 'pet rescue' minor as e-bay scrap. Rain or shine, welding standing up must be far superior to rolling on the floor with spatter and blow-throughs drip on you.

Back to the borrowed thread -
Chris, if you do end up with a few more BHP I'd recommend work on the brakes. In a month or 2 I'll have a servo on Gayle's minor with the standard drums. I'm told it gives a marked improvement so fingers crossed.

Post by **Willie** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:16 pm

Yes Ray the servo gives a great improvement in initial bite and
makes it much easier to get the best out of the brakes,but, they
still suffer the dreaded fade. I would strongly recommend that
you fit an underbonnet brake reservoir while you are at it.
Only broken ribs!!! Half way through my saloon rebuild I had a
triple heart by-pass........very frustrating.

Post by **Cam** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:08 pm

Blimey guys!!

Broken ribs, triple heart bypass!

I remember changing the front shocker on the MGB the day before going into hospital for a Mandibular and Maxillary osteotomy + hip bone graft. Needless to say, I was not working on anything for a while!!

We are not a healthy bunch!!!

Anyway, back to the steel!!

Presently I need to find a car roller, otherwise I'll be selling 'pet rescue' minor as e-bay scrap.

I also need to find one for the MM work over the summer. I have not got the space for a 'Grumpy' style body roller, but I could do with a 'pig on a spit' type.

I may get one from a friend of a friend who has just completed a MK 2 escort and is leaving the country soon, but it's not definate. I may end up making my own - like I did with my slightly over-engineered 3-ton engine hoist!! (got a bit carried away!!).

In a month or 2 I'll have a servo on Gayle's minor with the standard drums. I'm told it gives a marked improvement so fingers crossed.

All the servo will do is make the pedal easier to press, which is fine if that is your objective, but it will not and can not improve the braking, which is governed by the friction material area and composition. But as Willie says, it changes the 'feel' of the brakes

gives a great improvement in initial bite and makes it much easier to get the best out of the brakes

best to try one first if you can.

I personally don't like servos as they make the pedal feel spongy. Why not upgrade to front disc brakes instead - they make a HUGE difference.

My 1380 Minor has not got a servo, but can stop from 70+ pretty quickly and I have yet to experience brake fade with them. My brakes are the Sierra vented discs, and I have to say that I am very pleased with them (which makes a change!!).

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Moggy Modifications

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