Volumex block

[Faceplant]

Hi all,

I was sifting through ebay and found a lancia beta volumex engine block; http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/fiat-twin-cam-vol ... 35a92e3186

i wondered if anyone had experience of fitting (or finding) a volumex /supercharger on a fiat twin cam?

i read that a 16v head with some mods will fit, but the exhaust manifold was different and as it custom made i was reluctant to change head and exhaust.

cheers

[dp]

Although that might be a volumex block it (I'm 99% certain) won't be any different from a normal Fiat or Lancia block. It's the low compression pistons that differentiated between S/C and n/a engines.

The Lancia Volumex's had a special manifold to take the supercharger but both manifold and supercharger are hard to find. If you really want a supercharger it might be cheaper and certainly more effective to use a modern supercharger and custom manifold. But price that up against a hotter cam and twin webers which I suspect will be cheaper bang for buck.

As someone with a slightly hotter Lancia engine who has added up the costs, it's not worth souping up too much before an alternative newer engine gives cheaper horsepower.

Search the Guy Croft site for 16v heads on older blocks. Bear in mind that inlet and exhaust are reversed compared to (early) 8 valve engines. Again might be cheaper to pick up a Fiat coupe t/c engine than mixing and matching heads. Might be that Alfa twin spark also fits the Fiat gearbox.

I did a quick search on Volumex's for a bit more info for you but found this - http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C140438/

Might be a knackered engine but if not, not bad for £500 since you can Ebay off the other stuff. Remember you'll need some bits from yourRWD Fiat engine to make work.

[MartinB]

Mine is a 16 valve head (Lancia Thema) on an older (131) block. The first one I did was back in 1992 which used the normal flat top 2 litre pistons with remachined cutouts for the 4 valves. Cams were the Thema turbo cams and were brilliant for road use, really torquey even with twin 45 DHLAs due to virtually no overlap of the valve cam timing. It was also very good on fuel, again because of the very low cam overlap and compact combustion chamber design, seem to remember 40 mpg on a run with that engine. That was the best road engine I have ever had in mine.

Yes the exhaust manifold needs to be custom made, I think Guy Croft does an inlet manifold but I made my own (he didn't do them then!). The distributor can be a problem as it will need to come out of the block but no.1 exhaust primary is close, I made and extended distributor drive to cure this. The head water outlet comes out of the rear of the head, I blanked that off (as it was too near the bulkhead and I kept the battery in the normal position) and made a 'T' piece to fit between the cam pulleys and used the hole where a core plug was for the water outlet. Water distribution was/is fine as it is the same setup I use now with over 400 bhp.

Cam belt is the same length as the normal 8 valve 2 litre ones (148 teeth) although a 1" version is better rather than the standard 3/4" ones.

If you need to know anything about fitting a lancia 16 valve head to a Fiat/Lancia 8 valve block let me know?

Martin

[Faceplant]

Hmm, fair bit to consider there. Thanks for the input.

At the moment i have a guy croft head thats been gas flowed and ported, though the cam and valves/springs are origional. Also running twin dellorto 40's and custom made exhaust. So i have a pretty good starting point!

I think the volumex might be a step to far, but a set of fast road cams might be a better option. though i have seen guy crofts prices and at £500 for a pair of cams its a little rich.

Plus i've just been offered a half share in a skyline GTR as a track/fun car so i need to decide, mod the moggie or go for already the fast car!?!

[jonathon]

Rotrex supercharger, std cams/pistons will give you over 200bhp very easily and no undue stress on the motor. Go for forged pistons std spec rods and throttle bodies and this will rise to over 350bhp @ 1 bar of boost. Kits start at about £1500 plus vat.
Ohh and modify the moggy , its far more fun

[MartinB]

I agree with Jonathon, forget the Skyline, they aren't that quick anyway

[dp]

Much more fun to surprise someone in a Minor when it suits you than have a predictable Skyline:)

Jonathon, what CR forged pistons, and what's the cost of 350bhp for a Fiat T/C? How much bhp would you dial up to for something on the street and how much, how many mpg? Ta

I'm not in the market for such a thing unfortunately but always nice to know.

[MartinB]

For a road car, it would probably be cheaper to go for a low boost brand new Zetec engine than mess about rebuilding the 8 valve Fiat T/C. You will get more power and much better fuel economy out of the more modern engine design with the Zetec than the Fiat. The Fiat T/C is poor on fuel consumption in atmo form so will be even worse with the blower (it is all down to the combustion chamber and port shape).

The parts required to bring the Fiat up to top notch spec is likely to exceed the cost of a new Zetec.

[dp]

For a road car, it would probably be cheaper to go for a low boost brand new Zetec engine than mess about rebuilding the 8 valve Fiat T/C. You will get more power and much better fuel economy out of the more modern engine design with the Zetec than the Fiat. The Fiat T/C is poor on fuel consumption in atmo form so will be even worse with the blower (it is all down to the combustion chamber and port shape).

But you just said you were getting 40mpg with your 16v'd Fiat?

The parts required to bring the Fiat up to top notch spec is likely to exceed the cost of a new Zetec.

Adding a Zetec from the offset would probably be cheaper but if there's already a good Fiat fitted, the cost of reworking the front member evens things up a bit; unless you are skilled enough to do that yourself. I know you are, but many of us would have to pay for that bit.

Adding a supercharger to a Fiat or Zetec would be a similar cost wouldn't it? Maybe the existing fuel injection works in the Zetec's favour or it can be boosted a bit without modifying internals.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't recommend the Fiat anymore on the basis that if it went bang it'd be expensive to put right where Zetecs are ubiquitous.

I've heard but not tested that something like the Fiat Coupe 4 cyl turbo (and even 5 cyl but that won't fit) will mate to a Fiat 124 gearbox. I'm wondering if that might be a cheap way to more power if there's already an old Fiat in situ.

[MartinB]

Yes I said I got 40 mpg out of the the 16 valve on carbs and that is because it is a much better design chamber/port combination than the 8 valve! The 4 valve/cylinder Fiat combustion chamber is similar design to the Zetec. The old 8 valve T/C design is no way near as efficient as the 16 valve design.

I believe he old Fiat coupe 4 cylinder turbo engine is the same as to the Thema/Integrale engine. I don't think this would be a straight swop either as I think the turbo is located near no.4 cylinder probably where the lever arm damper would be on the minor. Also, to get proper power out of these is not particularly cheap as the exhaust manifold design isn't brilliant and the turbo will be too small! The integrales in standard form are quoted as (I think) only 220 bhp at 1.1 bar boost, to free that up and get more power takes bigger turbo, better exhaust manifold, different cams, different inlet manifold, well ported head etc etc.

It really depends upon what you plan to do with it and what power you really want.

To supercharge an 8 valve Fiat engine I would have though the cost would be at least 4 to £5k

One thing I think is definatley in favour for the Fiat though is the 131/132 5 speed gearbox, unbelievably tough in my experience.

[dp]

Out of interest, what sort of power and torque did you get from the 16V head when it was on twin 45s and apart from the piston cutting & other aforementioned changes, what else did it take to fit the head please?

[MartinB]

To be honest I can't remember what it was with the turbo cams, I do remember that with the same engine bored to 2.1 with 11.5:1 CR and BD3 (290 degree) cams with DHLA 45s it produced 190 bhp at the wheels but the low to mid range was worse as the BD3 cams made peak torque at 5500 rpm with peak power at 7200 rpm. I also remember that on the same rollers within 2 weeks of mine a stage 2 Fiat Strada 130 Abarth (8 valve) produced 130 bhp at the wheels.

To fit the 16 valve head you need the 16 valve head gasket, 16 valve head bolts (they are longer). I use the external bypass type thermostat, I know many people don't like this one but I haven't had problems with it, I also think it is kinder to the water pump as a normal thermostat just restricts the flow until it opens.
I would also go for the 1" cam belt, I originally used genuine Fiat 3/4" belts until I found the teeth starting to come off after 5000 miles! 1" ones much, much better. Just use the normal 8 valve tensioner.

I think that is about it really, quite a simple swap although sorting out the cylinder head water outlet will take some fabrication/machining along with the distributor extension unless you can make one drive off the rear of one of the cams but then you have to move the battery, also exhaust and inlet manifolds need to be sorted.

If I think of anything else I will post it here.

[jonathon]

Darren, we have not done a supercharged Fiat, it was just hypothetical chat really. We were looking into throttle bodies on the Fiat at one time but the customer went V8 instead.
We are running a 'bog' standard brand new 2.0L Zetec at the moment, no internal mods standard induction but high flow injectors. Adding the Rotrex supercharger has brought the motor upto 220bhp and almost the same in torque. We are running .5 bar of boost so its not really stressing the motor at all. It was hot run and mapped at Omex and then thrashed around Snetterton, Castle Coombe , Mallory and Llandow yesterday at a kit car track day. In Richards hands (mr Omex) he overtook everything inc bike engined lightweights and a supp'd up Exige. A joy to watch.
Martin spoke to a Marshall who recalled a minor saloon visiting the scenery about a year ago

[MartinB]

Jonathon, sounds like you had good fun at Llandow yesterday, I haven't been there with the Minor since 2007, what sort of lap times were you doing?

Any video footage?

[jonathon]

Yep, brill circuit, love the 'bus stop' and the daredevil braking into it. Liked the mashalls term of the 'oh MY FAVOURITE CAR IS A DATSUN CHERRY' run off lane
The best I did was a 53sec lap, I'm sure Richard took loads off that as he was flat in 3rd around the bottom corner.
Some footage is going up on Youtube from a guy behind us plus some trackside footage, just as soon as I can download my video camera.
I have bought some of the 'spy' keyfob cameras, which run full HD mode with 2 hours filming time. just gaffer tape them on any away y'go. The cameras are about £8 plus £11 for the card, bargain. I'm going to put some under the car to view the brakes and suspension whilst on track. The picture quality of these items is simply stunning, and so cheap as I had looked at some setups for about £500 with multi cameras.Here's a link for you to see how good these are
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuzhRMcrt6o
Cars coming on well now, but will have to chat with you , Martin, re anti roll bars

[dp]

To fit the 16 valve head you need the 16 valve head gasket, 16 valve head bolts (they are longer). I use the external bypass type thermostat, I know many people don't like this one but I haven't had problems with it, I also think it is kinder to the water pump as a normal thermostat just restricts the flow until it opens.
I would also go for the 1" cam belt, I originally used genuine Fiat 3/4" belts until I found the teeth starting to come off after 5000 miles! 1" ones much, much better. Just use the normal 8 valve tensioner.

Hmm I'm already up to a 1" belt, on the 8v, are the belts the same, I'm sure I saw a pic somewhere of the 16v with a more curvy tooth/camwheel profile? Or can you use the 1" cambelt wheels as per 8V belt on the 16v cams?

Actually where do you get your 1" belts from?

Probably a really stupid question this but do the inlet/outlet ports on 8v and 16v physically match? Eg would the inlet ports of the 16V fit the 8V exhaust flange and the inlet manifold ? Just thinking of the cost saving if one could reverse the inlet and exhaust ports & reuse bits. Ie the pre-existing Fiat upgrade scenario.

Distributor already replaced by Megajolt n Edis, no problem there.

Concur on gearbox. Mine was getting a bit awkward to change into 5th so got hold of a cheap spare (albeit with different tailshaft) with the idea of building 2 out of one. As I pulled engine & gearbox out after the fire it was a good time to bite bullet on rebuilding gearbox. Anyhow local gearbox guy just replaced all the bearings & said actual gears as new on both boxes. Nice to know that despite 131 boxes getting a bit thin on the ground, finding gearbox parts will probably never be an issue as the bearings are apparently standard sizes and the gears are tough. Seem to remember some form of Lada having a 131 type gearbox but I digress way off original poster's topic.

[dp]

Darren, we have not done a supercharged Fiat, it was just hypothetical chat really. We were looking into throttle bodies on the Fiat at one time but the customer went V8 instead.
We are running a 'bog' standard brand new 2.0L Zetec at the moment, no internal mods standard induction but high flow injectors. Adding the Rotrex supercharger has brought the motor upto 220bhp and almost the same in torque. We are running .5 bar of boost so its not really stressing the motor at all. It was hot run and mapped at Omex and then thrashed around Snetterton, Castle Coombe , Mallory and Llandow yesterday at a kit car track day. In Richards hands (mr Omex) he overtook everything inc bike engined lightweights and a supp'd up Exige. A joy to watch.

Would have loved to have seen that:)

Martin spoke to a Marshall who recalled a minor saloon visiting the scenery about a year ago
We are negotiating the possibility of offering a supercharged Zetec in the near future and expect a cost of £5-5.5K for the base set up (220bhp) and anywhere upto £10 for stages upto 500bhp. Believe me though the 220 spec is more than enough for the road, and will return (in road tune) around 35-40 mpg, about the same as a 1098cc A series

Out of curiousity is that 5-5.5K for just the engine or does it include bulkhead mod, gearbox, in effect fitted but not suspension mods?

Us old Fiat/Lancia guys, well if we can upgrade or even find a source of bits from a newer Fiat engine, to keep a reliable 130bhp or upgrade to more, well it could be a cheaper path. Eg Fiat Coupe 2.0 16 valve turbo should fit 131 box and give 200ish bhp. Apparently 20 valve 5 cylinder Fiat coupe engine has same bellhousing as 16v but I think that might stick out of the front of a morris Minor . On the other hand, if the Alfa GTV uses same gearbox as Fiat Coupe it might be possible to get an Alfa V6 onto the Fiat 131 box with one of the bellhousings.

[MartinB]

Just use the cam wheels from the 8 valve (your correct some of the 16 valve engines had a different tooth shape).

No the inlet and exhaust flanges are not interchangeable between the 8 valve and 16 valve heads.

If you don't need the distributor then that makes it easier

Usually get my 1" belts from Guy Croft (148 teeth) same as the ones for the 8 valve 2 litre engines.

[dp]

Thanks for this info:)

[jonathon]

Sorry Darren, had my post deleted so please pm me re Zetec engine.