Astonished by quote for an engine rebuild

[Simon P]

Hi Folks,
Please forgive my first post being a question,

I saddly after using it daily for eight years I had to park up my old moggie in our garage due to the engine being so badly worn it was no longer able to keep any oil inside itself, I didn't have the time to do it then and with laziness and one thing or another I've just never got round to sorting it out (I know slap me) so now some four years later I've finally pulled the engine and stripped it down,

The engine in question is of the 1275 marina variety and is going to require the following work carried out,
Block rebore / new pistons and rings, crank reground and a set of new shells,
Cylinder head refaced and rebuild with new hardend seats, bronze guide's fitted and possibly a set of new valves, (the two I removed didn't look to clever)

So I dropped the block head and crank off at my local engineering shop the other day to get a quote for the work and was gobsmacked today when i received a quote of £1100...Gulp! and this doesn't include a new oil pump timing chain or gaskets either,
I know it's a few years ago now, but the last time I rebuilt an engine which was a very simular little datsun unit it cost me something like £350-£400 in total,

Is it me? Maybe I'm a bit further behind the times than I thought I was!
What do you all think? Is this quote just a little on the excessive side ?

Cheers Simon.

[iddy]

Bull Motif charge about £870 for a 1300 A series, and about £800 for a 1098 engine.
Much cheaper than your quote for a rebuild:D

[taupe]

Ask them to break the cost down

It might be that a lot of the cost is the work youre asking to be done to the head.

It does sound a lot though.

[bmcecosse]

It's WAY too much! Can you not do the assembly work yourself ? The only difficult part with the 1275 is removing the old pistons from the rods - and fitting the new ones. Otherwise - it's straightforward assembly with due care. The parts and the cost of the reboring/crank grinding should not exceed £400/500. And there is probably no need for all that head work - it will run fine without hard seats, the valves will clean up just fine (but are not expensive anyway) and bronze guides are NOT a good idea for a road car. In any case - complete unleaded 1275 heads are plentiful on ebay........ So - I would get the parts back - then take the block somewhere sensible for reboring and the crank for grinding - and have the pistons swapped on the rods, this is all the work you will need to pay for, and assemble it yourself! If you tell us where you are - maybe someone will volunteer to help. I would - if you are anywhere near me!!

[Simon P]

Bull Motif charge about £870 for a 1300 A series, and about £800 for a 1098 engine.
Much cheaper than your quote for a rebuild:D

Thats a bit more like it, however i would really prefur to build the engine myself as that way i know whats been done,

Ask them to break the cost down

It might be that a lot of the cost is the work youre asking to be done to the head.

It does sound a lot though.

They said the new parts will come to around £300-£350. the rest is machining and labour charges...( Think I'm in the wrong job! )

It's WAY too much! Can you not do the assembly work yourself ? The only difficult part with the 1275 is removing the old pistons from the rods - and fitting the new ones. Otherwise - it's straightforward assembly with due care. The parts and the cost of the reboring/crank grinding should not exceed £400/500. And there is probably no need for all that head work - it will run fine without hard seats, the valves will clean up just fine (but are not expensive anyway) and bronze guides are NOT a good idea for a road car. In any case - complete unleaded 1275 heads are plentiful on ebay........ So - I would get the parts back - then take the block somewhere sensible for reboring and the crank for grinding - and have the pistons swapped on the rods, this is all the work you will need to pay for, and assemble it yourself! If you tell us where you are - maybe someone will volunteer to help. I would - if you are anywhere near me!!

HaHa! That price didn't include any re-assembly, I'm a mechanic by trade so had planned on rebuilding it myself anyway, I just needed to get the machine work done, think I'll try another local machine shop but just take the block and crank this time round, the head work is probibly whats making it so expencive, it is in a really bad way though with some major valve guide wear, in the thirty years I've been doing this job I've never seen a valve move side-ways as much as these do! ( can't beleive the engine still ran so well like this either ) As you say would be a better idea to just grab another head off fleabay, just had a quick look and there seems to be an abundance of them on there,

Thank you very much for the kind offer of help, appriciate that and may give a shout out in the future when it comes to tidying up the rest of the car... Sunshine with free beer an pizza's will be the offer on the day or tea coffee for those of us that don't drink,

Thanks for the replies folk's, I sort of knew it was way too expencive but still thought I'd check first.

[Matt]

You could try Vulcan Engineering in Hanwell for the machining etc

Prices in July '07

Rebore - £100
Crank Grind - £100
Swapping Pistons on Rods - £20

New pistons are around £180
A complete set of bearings about £65


There is also Mini Speed in S. London who are obviously A series specialists ;)

[LouiseM]

Welcome to the messageboard.

It might be worth getting a few quotes from places outside of London as labour charges tend to be at least £20 per hour cheaper elsewhere. I find it is usually worth spending the extra time & petrol in travelling a bit further out to avoid London prices

[kittyfell]

I would expect rebore costs of ~ £60 max and regrind also ~£60. That £20 for swapping pistons is good - if it is to do all 4. It's also very easy to bang out valve guides and fit new - just don't use Phos/bronze. But if the head is that bad - just grab another.

[Simon P]

Thanks for the replys,
Got most of it sorted now, just need to grab a new timing chain kit and oil pump,

Machine work being carried out:
Re-bore engine Block + 040 £150,
Set of Pistons / Rings + 040 £175,
Re-grind / polish Crankshaft £100,
Full set of bearing shells £88.66,

Machine shop total £513.66

Unleaded Rover Cooper S Head from a local Mini specialist £85, ( removed today from a running car )
Full set of gaskets (Payne) £36,

Total so far is much better now at £634.66

Ok so couple of questions please,
Is the Duplex kit the best choice for replacing the timing chain? ( engine had a rattling single chain fitted )
And is there any advantage in fitting the MG Metro turbo high capacity oil pump instead of the std item?

[kittyfell]

Emmm - the Cooper S never had an 'unleaded' head. And no - just use a steel back oil pump from the usual suppliers. The Turbo one would probably not fit under the backplate cover anyway. This would be a good chance to fit an uprated camshaft..........., and if doing that - then a Duplex set is worth fitting. I'm staggered at the reboring cost - and the crank grind seems expensive ('polish' should be included anyway!) - and the bearing shells are way overpriced. £35/40 max for a set - including thrusts.

[Alec]

Hello BMCE,

"and bronze guides are NOT a good idea for a road car."

Why do you say that, they help conduct the heat away from the valves better than cast iron?

Alec

[MarkyB]

Road cars don't tend to get rebuilt between races or how ever often race cars do.
Cast iron guides are fine and last MUCH longer.

I thought the bearing were well over priced too, couldn't comment about the rebore etc. as I've never had one done.

[Alec]

Hello Marky,

"Cast iron guides are fine and last MUCH longer"

That does surprise me as Phosphor bronze is primarily used as a bearing material. I know it has many marine applications also but I would expect a better life than cast iron.

Alec

[hotrodder13]

whats the diffrence between the two apart from diffrent material

[Alec]

Hello HR13,

phosphor bronze is much more expensive than cast iron, and i had always believed better for making bearings.

I would like to know what experiences others have had that seemed to indicate that they do not work as well as cast iron.
I have to add that I made up a set for my Triumph and after 40,000 miles there seems to be no adverse effects?

Alec

[billlobban]

I just rebuilt a 1098 (I realise there will be a price difference on a1275) and I am surprised at your quote.
Bull Motif do a 1098 exchange crank complete with shells and thrusts for £75. Pistons were £85 and the rebore +040 was £100 including 'decking' the block. They also do a 1275 gasket set for about £25
Must be the only thing we can get cheaper in the sticks. Shopping around makes sense

[kittyfell]

The BM exchange crank is a real bargain. But generally regrinding (which should obviously include a final 'polish') is £10 per journal, and perfectly good shells can be bought for ~£35 the set, less if you trawl ebay. That rebore was probably £20 per bore plus £20 for decking which is quite reasonable although I have seen less. And 1275 pistons don't need to be expensive, shop around!

[Simon P]

Emmm - the Cooper S never had an 'unleaded' head. And no - just use a steel back oil pump from the usual suppliers. The Turbo one would probably not fit under the backplate cover anyway. This would be a good chance to fit an uprated camshaft..........., and if doing that - then a Duplex set is worth fitting. I'm staggered at the reboring cost - and the crank grind seems expensive ('polish' should be included anyway!) - and the bearing shells are way overpriced. £35/40 max for a set - including thrusts.

The guys at the mini center told me it had been converted at some stage, (probably by them) it apparently has larger valves aswell so would guess theres a good chance its not the original cooper head?
I was planing on using an MG metro cam in it as i knew i already had one somewhere, but after finally finding it under a tonne of rubbish in the garage it's now sporting a thick layer of red rust so i just binned it, incredible how much stuff (mainly rubbish) can build up over a few years!
Guy at the mini center suggested using a kent 266 cam with the head when i was there so i may ask him to price one when i go back to collect it next week, anyone know what i should be paying for this cam? Had a look on fleabay this morning and found the following from the same seller:

Kent 266 Cam £152.
Comp Followers £41.
Duplex T/C kit £30.50
Oil Pump £23.50
Postage £12.
___________________
Total £259.

The machine work cost was pretty much the same at the three different places i tried so i decided to just give the go ahead with the machine shop that already had the block, also i failed to mention the quote given includes fitting the new camshaft bearings in the block and machining the main cap for a center strap,

I'm sure it could be done cheaper but i just want to get on with it now so i can concentrate on getting the rest of the car back into shape again.... Lots to do!

[bmcecosse]

These parts all sound hideously expensive to me............ I'm sure you can get them for MUCH less. Just shop around.