Owners Clubs of the future

[new_adventures_of_arthur]

I hate by '56 reg Astra. It is the worst piece of crap ever, in most part due to the CIM module which is located inside the steering column, and controls the horn, the stereo, the wipers, the lights and I think pretty much everything electrical.

The car relies heavily upon this little computer and Instead of connecting a switch to whatever it is for, this CIM module acts as a middle man, receives the message from the switch and then tells the lights/horn/whatever what to do next. You can feel the delay whenever using it, for instance when I turn the lights off, there is a 2 second delay before they go off - when I beep the horn, a half-second delay between it actually sounding (when it bothers to work).

It just got me thinking, that in the future, in addition to classic car clubs giving advice on how to uprate the brakes, etc, they will probably offer a "downloads" page where owners can download software upgrades to fix the factory release of the little black boxes. Granted I know cars have had computers in them for many years now, but if they're going to replace the lowly switch and wire, they need a good reason for it - and should at least make sure they work!

I wonder how long it is before mechanics offer the same response as the IT department: "try switching it off and switching it back on again"

[HarryandDoreen]

It is happening already.

I own a little bookshop and one gets to know one's customers well. I have had three conversations in the last three weeks with people along the lines of "the car wouldn't start but the mechanic said that the computer diagnostics showed no problem". Curiously enough, all three were French cars.

Owners clubs in fifty years will have probably have software problems sections on their message boards, if message boards exist. Oh god, it all doesn't bear thinking about!

The sheer simplicity of our cars.

Harry and Doreen

[Blaketon]

I have said for a long time that there will be an ever widening automotive generation gap. In fact, I think its now happening. I wouldn't say I live in a particularly affluent area and yet pre 51 cars are pretty rare (In fact most of the stuff I reckon is post 53). I could be wrong; it’s only my impression and I've got better things to do than sit down with a clip board.

Basically you have the circuit boards on wheels and then a gap to the survivors from around 1980 and before. Even 1980s cars are rare; I see more Minors and MGBs/Midgets than I do Mk2 Cavaliers or Escort XR3s (In fact I've seen more Rover P4s in the last few years than I've seen Cavaliers) and not by going to events; these are cars I see on the road (Though in the great scheme of things these too are rare; just not so rare as '80s cars).

I think even the Government must have picked up on this, as when they first put the break on historic road tax exemption, they gave the reason as financial loss to the Treasury, as more cars became tax exempt. I pointed out to them that I believed a smaller proportion of cars would survive to reach 25 years of age, than had previously been the case. The reasons I gave were basically the sorts of things you mentioned. I would further add that easy availability of credit and the need of many to keep up appearances, has meant that cars now get scrapped sooner than they might have at one time. It’s ironic that improvements in rust protection are largely being wasted. Rather than admit to being wrong, the government simply concocted another equally spurious argument (The “Environmental” one) but that’s not relevant here.

Perhaps we are now, as a nation, less prepared to get our hands dirty (Indeed amongst some there is a kind of kudos in being practically useless). However it is also true that components on modern cars seem to be less repairable and are only available as sealed units, that is until the manufacturers deem it time to discontinue them. There were, on the Practical Classics Forum (Which seems to have suffered some catastrophic problem), some who claimed to be able to repair a “Black box” with nothing more than a multimeter and a pair of scissors but I tended to take such claims with a pinch of salt. Give me something held together with screws any day!!

Added to this is the widespread use of plastic for trim parts. Plastic is not the wonder material it was claimed to be. It may lend itself to mass production but it does not last forever. Take a dashboard for example. How many modern plastic dashboards crack as a result of prolonged exposure to the Sun? When they crack, how easy are they to repair PROPERLY? With a Minor dashboard (Apart from it being less likely that it would break), you could weld up a crack and re paint it. With wooden dashboards, they can be re surfaced or even remade. Unless the tooling for modern stuff is acquired by someone, that will be the end of it. It will be too costly to make the multitude of plastic parts required to restore the much maligned 56 Astra and others like it.

I have had three conversations in the last three weeks with people along the lines of "the car wouldn't start but the mechanic said that the computer diagnostics showed no problem". Curiously enough, all three were French cars.

I am told (By people in the breakdown business) that Japanese cars are now the most reliable and that marques, which formerly had very good reputations for reliability, are being let down by electronics (And perhaps inadequately trained technicians). I think this could be because the Japanese have a different approach to developing new products and that they also have long standing experience of mass producing electronic components (My neighbour has a 1970s Japanese TV which still works and it has never been in for repair).

[SteveandKelly]

You mention the fact that there are few cars older than 53 plates around lately,all I can say is how true! I Read in a german car magazine that the average age of cars in the UK is 6 years, compared to Germany where the average is 8/9 years old. I found that rather odd. Perhaps because the Germans tend to buy from within the domestic market (Audi, VW,BMW,Mercedes, Opel) , and these makes last longer, where as I believe Renault is the most imported car in The UK.(Not intended as a slight against French car manufacturers , BTW !) Since the introduction of the Scrappage Scheme in Germany the big winners were small cars, Hyundai & Kia did well, as did the VW Polo.The "Big Boys" lost out, so maybe the average age of cars will align itself to the UK .A sad indictment to our throw away mentality really.

[Mogwai]

I wonder how long it is before mechanics offer the same response as the IT department: "try switching it off and switching it back on again"

You'd be surprised how often that happens & works

[bmcecosse]

There is a very good Vauxhall Owners Forum....... Helped me with my Meriva a few times.
Latest car is a Punto - has several annoying 'electronic' and non-electronic features - but the worst (I find) is that I can't just make one 'flash' of the indicators - which I would normally do to change lane - or acknowledge another car etc. it ALWAYS does 3 flashes - even if I just touch the switch down slightly - which annoys the £$%& out of me!

[PSL184]

I can't just make one 'flash' of the indicators - which I would normally do to change lane - or acknowledge another car etc. it ALWAYS does 3 flashes - even if I just touch the switch down slightly !

All cars seem to do that these days - You can get one flash out of the indicators if you flick left then right immediately hence flashing both sides in turn.

[billlobban]

The advantage of the older (pre-electronic) generation cars is that almost everything is repairable by most people with a rudimentary electro-mechanical knowledge. In years to come to run a more modern classic you will have to have a PhD in electronics and whats worse just who is going to justify the cost manufacturing those little black boxes to replace the original which has gone phut.
In another thread we argued (sorry discussed) the relative merits off dynamos versus alternators but from my experience the problem with modern cars is almost entirely electronics related. The black box which operates the widget, or several widgets, has gone walkabout meaning a recovery to the main dealer. Every time I open the bonnet of my wife's Alfa I almost have to look at a diagram to find the dipstick. Even 'simple' things like the heater are computer controlled resulting in 2 years of problems that noboby can find despite multiple visits to be plugged in to the electricary.
The best accessory to buy for your new car is a tow-rope

[Blaketon]

The best accessory to buy for your new car is a tow-rope

Unless it happens to be the new Passat I heard about. The handbrake is electrically operated and automatic. It will not release unless the engine is running. Said car broke down (Yes I know new cars don't break down ) and could not even be pushed out of the way, until the breakdown truck arrived and a lap top could be plugged into the Passat, to overide the handbrake. Needless to say the fault could not be cured at the roadside. So what you really need is a towing dolly, that can lift the wheels.

[billlobban]

The handbrake is electrically operated and automatic. It will not release unless the engine is running.

I had wondered about that. Wife's Alfa has a 'Hill Start for Dummies' system - the brakes are held on for a few seconds automatically and release as you drive off - what IF as above the system fails and the brakes dont release. Still its a great system saves having to carry out that almost impossible task of releasing the handbrake with one hand while you fiddle with the clutch and throttle (men cant multi-task remember). It also has the added benefit of encouraging you to sit with your foot on the brakes

[new_adventures_of_arthur]

As a programmer I would say I have more bias towards computers than some, though this sort of "computer for computers sake" just drives me up the wall.

I honestly think electronics should be used within cars to compliment functions of the car, not take over. A good example of this is automatic lights - they can be automatic, but you can also override them, and/or disable them (at least you could in my previous car).

[Mogwai]

The handbrake is electrically operated and automatic. It will not release unless the engine is running.

I had wondered about that. Wife's Alfa has a 'Hill Start for Dummies' system - the brakes are held on for a few seconds automatically and release as you drive off - what IF as above the system fails and the brakes dont release. Still its a great system saves having to carry out that almost impossible task of releasing the handbrake with one hand while you fiddle with the clutch and throttle (men cant multi-task remember). It also has the added benefit of encouraging you to sit with your foot on the brakes

The system on the Alfa is entirely different from the VW handbrake(thank god) it is controlled by the ABS which is a very reliable component & is something that should fail safe. if any of the information the ABS ecu needs from various sensors etc to operate the hillhold isn't received for any reason it will just shut down that function. Clever but a pain in the ass all the same

[Sidney'61]

I honestly think electronics should be used within cars to compliment functions of the car, not take over. A good example of this is automatic lights - they can be automatic, but you can also override them, and/or disable them (at least you could in my previous car).

In my mum's citreon C3, you could switch the lights on if they were off, but once they decided to come on automatically you couldn't switch them off again
Electronic handbrakes are just ridculous, there is no need for them whatsoever, they cause a lot of hassle and have just the one benefit that you can just press a button instead of pulling a lever (is it really that difficult?). A few times in the past I've moved the minor slightly by pulling off the handbrake and pushing it to save starting the engine, on the other hand, whenever we have to move dads BMW we have to start the engine to drive it forwards a few inches, such a waste of battery power and fuel.

[rayofleamington]

I wonder how long it is before mechanics offer the same response as the IT department: "try switching it off and switching it back on again"

I used to have to do that on my 1987 Volvo 440 Turbo - when the Turbo was faulty it would start to missfire if I took it to high revs and the missfire could only be cleared by turning it off and on.

As for car club forums having a 'SW' section - they do. I also agree with the positive comments about the vauxhall forum - it's saved me a small fortune already. It is possible to read the fault codes from the dashboard (by counting flashes) and the number tells you what's wrong (using google to look it up!). I've got a high mileage diesel estate (still does great mpg) and the codes told me about fault glow plug last year and it recently needed a crank sensor. I had an automatic car for a month last year when I was on crutches and that developed a faulty knock sensor - which was self diagnosed via codes read without a tool - but I needed the forum to find out how to read and decipher the codes.

I much prefer a switch to be mechanical, not computerised, but not in every case: e.g: the integrated wash/wipe or for the automatic turning on of rear wiper when reversing in the rain etc... The most annoying I've found so far was the mono-stable indicator stalk (Vectra?) which didn't click into a turn position and would decide what to do depending on how long you flicked it one direction. Also dislike the VW 'minimum 3 flashes' indicators that they seem to fit as standard.

[MarkyB]

There are still some things that can be fixed by those in the know.
I belong to an American Mercedes mailing list and the fix for non-functioning cruise control is to take the top of the black box and remelt or redo the solder connections on the circuit board.

A lot of modern stuff, motherboards in particular, fail because of under specified capacitors which can be spotted by them bulging or leaking.
Very fiddly to do but they can be replaced.

I like indicators that you don't have to "latch" to use but I think two flashes is the minimum, one flash is too easily missed.

[rayofleamington]

I like indicators that you don't have to "latch" to use but I think two flashes is the minimum, one flash is too easily missed.

Modern latching indicators can be used without latching, however I still like to be able to decide how many flashes (e.g. one each way to say thanks to a lorry driver for making it easy for you to overtake etc..)

[new_adventures_of_arthur]

yup - I hate these indicators.

I dont mind the minimum 3 flashes thing, but when you have to "indicate left" to turn off the right indicator becomes a pain - especially if it has just decided to cancel, right at the moment you're "cancelling" it yourself - and end up indicating left. It's just a bad idea (especially when my Astra can I can indicate left off a round about, turn left, then turn right, and right again, and its still indicating left from leaving the roundabout).

[chickenjohn]

I have said for a long time that there will be an ever widening automotive generation gap. In fact, I think its now happening. I wouldn't say I live in a particularly affluent area and yet pre 51 cars are pretty rare (In fact most of the stuff I reckon is post 53). I could be wrong; it’s only my impression and I've got better things to do than sit down with a clip board.

Basically you have the circuit boards on wheels and then a gap to the survivors from around 1980 and before. Even 1980s cars are rare; I see more Minors and MGBs/Midgets than I do Mk2 Cavaliers or Escort XR3s (In fact I've seen more Rover P4s in the last few years than I've seen Cavaliers) and not by going to events; these are cars I see on the road (Though in the great scheme of things these too are rare; just not so rare as '80s cars).

I think even the Government must have picked up on this, as when they first put the break on historic road tax exemption, they gave the reason as financial loss to the Treasury, as more cars became tax exempt.-snip-.

I have thought the same thing for a while now. I would go further and say that any car (with the exception of exotic classic/ specialist cars- Porsche/Ferarri/supercars etc) post the chrome bumper and points ignition era should not be considered a classic car due to the difficulty in repairing plastic trim and electonics over the long term. These cars are not designed to be durable and maintained virtually indefinitely like a Minor can be and other pre mid 70;s classics.

Practical classics should not be featuring these cars, such as the boring modern hatch backs and Eastern European cars they seem to love these days, and it is not worth people restoring them when there are plenty of genuine classics out there being scrapped all the time (Minors included sadly, under the Governments terrible scrappage scheme).

Minors were considered classic cars in the early 80's and were starting to be restored even then. Nothing has changed and most 80's cars were disposable items then and they still are and that is why so few survive, and the cars built to last are still around as you have noticed.

OTOH, Land Rovers can be re-built and they are worth keeping going, being a landmark type of car and tough and durable. Also 80's and early 90's Merc's last very well if cared for.

On the whole though as cars become more modern and complex as stated above they become less viable as they get older.

[MarkyB]

I think that what people think of as classic cars depends to an extent to what was about when they were young.
People who have grown up with computers etc. are likely to have less trouble sorting out more modern cars than we do.

A chap at work got all sorts of features including a more powerful engine "turned on" by a friendly mechanic at a main dealer with the right interface and computer.
It was all there, but disabled when the car was built due to it being a lower spec.

[Blaketon]

Practical classics should not be featuring these cars, such as the boring modern hatch backs and Eastern European cars they seem to love these days, and it is not worth people restoring them when there are plenty of genuine classics out there being scrapped all the time (Minors included sadly, under the Governments terrible scrappage scheme).

There is, within the readership of PC (And Forum posters), an unofficial "Practical Bangers" section. By this I mean that they run bangers but claim to run a "Classic" car, I believe because it sounds better to say that. The forum will sometimes have threads along the lines of "Is my 1996 Escort a "Classic?" The simple answer is not yet and by the definition of FIVA it will need to be thirty years old. If said Escort is still around in twenty years, it will have as much right to be called a classic as a Ford Pop. Whether you or I like the car is another matter (There are some bona fide classics that are not to my tastes).

So far as modern cars and computer literate people are concerned, yes they may find use of the diagnostics easier than some (But are not all of us on this forum computer literate, otherwise we wouldn't be on here) but you still need access to the software and I'm not sure whether manufacturers will want to make this available to all. I know some of it is horrendously expensive and to an independent garage, which specialises on no particular make, that is a problem. The people, who do my MOTs, have largely moved away from general repairs into sales, of still under warranty used cars; if they get a problem, its off to the dealer. These days their tools are used mainly on brakes, shock absorbers, exhausts and tyres (And on their MGA, which they are rebuilding, as time permits!!).

The other problem is that it is all very well knowing what sensor has broken but if said sensor (Or a suitable alternative) is no longer available, then I don’t know whether these, what you might call “Plug & Play” fitters, would have the right skills and facilities to “Knock one up”. The same goes for the multitude of plastic parts now used. Plastic does perish and as an example, over time, Sunlight can play havoc with dashboards. A metal or wooden dash can be repaired but plastic ones often require replacement. There is also the fact that cars now have far more gadgets and so far more to go wrong and far more to restore. All these complex parts were made on very expensive tooling, geared towards mass production. The same could be said of a Minor wing for example but it would still be possible for a good sheet metal worker/panel beater to make one by hand (Albeit at a cost). To make a mould for a set of plastic interior trim/dashboard etc, I feel would be much more costly. Once you had made the moulds, you could turn out many more IF there was a demand but that’s unlikely to be the case.