Hydrogen powered Minors?

[GeorgeHurst]

I have recently come across these 'on-demand' hydrogen gas generators: small generators that use 12V DC to generate hydrogen gas from water and pump it directly into the fuel system, reducing emissions and cost.

With no hydrogen tanks storing potentially dangerous pressurised gas it seems like the most amazing device... a relatively simple installation, very cheap and hugely beneficial for your pocket and the environment. The website below even proffers increased performance.

I suppose governments would never legislate implementation of this technology as it will take precious tax out of their pockets and give them less reason to go to war, which fills me with more enthusiasm for it!

Have a look at the links below and see what you think. I hope this will open a dialogue about whether this is something that is worthwhile / possible, and whether the claims the company makes are entirely true.

Overview of the generator:
http://www.hhoplusgas.com/

Product profile of the generator suitable for engines less than 1600cc:
http://www.hhoplusgas.com/product.php?id_product=14

Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

George

[RogerRust]

Unfortunately it only produces 1 litre per minute at 27.5 amps!

At 3000 revs the engine will have swallowed 1650 litres (1500 @ 1098) litres of mixture in a minute.

So my feeling is that the power consumption to deliver such a small volume will off set any improvements.

[Stig]

I had a long discussion with a friend about this a while ago. It sounds a great idea until you remember about conservation of energy (or "there's no such thing as a free lunch").
You use electrical energy to produce the hydrogen which is burned in the engine to produce electrical energy via the alternator which produces hydrogen which...

I'd imagine it could be used in a hybrid engine optimised for a more constant load where idling capacity generates hydrogen but I couldn't see it giving a 10mpg improvement in my friend's Ford Focus.

[mike.perry]

If it was that simple and it worked everyone would have been using it years ago. You don't get something for nothing.

[ColinP]

Fascinating....

HHO gas - is hydrogen with 1 part oxygen - Otherwise know as H2O - or as we chemists call it

WATER.

Anyone remember the effects of water injection? (as a mist?)

IIRC the Luftwaffe had FW190 which used water injection - this cooled the incoming air (remember it's fuel injection) so that more air could fit into a cylinder (cool - more dense).
Effectively this raises the compression ratio.
The ultimate for this was methanol injection which gave better results, unfortunately, the engine life could be measured in hours.

I don't think this has much effect on a carburetter based system (vapourising the fuel cools the inlet mixture).

On the other hand, burning water isn't actually going to produce a lot of heat. Try it with the vapour from a kettle....

colin

[GeorgeHurst]

Roger: Thats an interesting angle, hadn't considered how much it would need to produce, though as I understand it it doesn't replace either the fuel or the air, but simply supplements it, so perhaps the 1500+ l you mention would not be needed.

The next size up produces 2 litres at 20A:
http://www.hhoplusgas.com/product.php?id_product=28

And the 24V 'truck' version produces 2.5 litres at 27.7A (4l at 50A):
http://www.hhoplusgas.com/product.php?id_product=18

Perhaps one could use a leisure battery, charged by a second alternator / a relay that made the alternator charge the leisure battery once the car battery was full. This second battery could then handle all the large power ouput for the generator?

Stig: I'm right with you on that notion in the case of the eco electricity cars out there, in that one must remember what is involved in producing the electricity that powers them, and they are not miracle machines.
However, in this instance the electricity to power the generator is produced by the alternator, which (as far as I understand - correct me if I'm wrong) does not consume, it only produces energy for the battery from kinetic energy.
As I see it the benefit of HHO is that it makes the engine use less fuel and makes it burn it better... as such perhaps it would not be a 'free lunch' but a discounted one!

Mike: I know what you mean, but in my, slightly cynical, opinion I speculate that the reason no-one has been using it for years is that research into the idea and its implementation has been restricted to a few small outfits, without the backing of governmental funding, because (no matter how much they say they care about climate change) reducing consumption is inherently against a governments best interests.

Colin: Whilst HHO is indeed H20 / water, is it not the case that these generators produce hydrogen gas which is combustible, rather than water vapour? (My knowledge of chemistry/physics is not great so maybe I'm totally wrong!)

I think that whilst it may not totally eliminate the need for fuel, or slash ones fuel bill in half, if it can work and make SOME impact, for the meager price of about £120 it is a great idea to both save a bit of money and to do a bit for the planet, maaaan.

Part of the reason I drive a Morris is because it is IMO a 'green car' - whilst its emissions are probably dirtier than a Prius or another standard modern car, it has already long since offset its carbon footprint... one might buy a new green car, but the environmental impact of manufacture, harvesting the raw materials, transport from Japan to Uk on tanker, return journey of empty tanker to Japan, and THEN emissions, surely far outways any benefit the cleaner engine will make.

Further more, if one considers that many of these cars won't be working in 20 years time and another batch will have to be made, and the trusty, solid as, Morris is still trundling along in 20 years, I know which makes more sense. And further still, if we continue to produce and consume in the manner we do at the moment, we only have about 50 years left, then catastrophic climate change, sea levels rising etc.

The scrapage scheme is the perfect example of how twisted 21st century logic has become, encouraging people to scrap perfectly serviceable / restorable cars for a brand new one - perpetuating the cycle of consumption. Sure, it will help to kickstart the economy, but are we to learn nothing from the credit crunch? Our way of life as a whole is not sustainable. I frankly think that if the banks are on the edge of collapse then let them collapse, then perhaps next time they won't be so greedy... but no, just look at it now... big bonuses kicking about left right and centre, and the taxpayer gets it in the pocket. Its a complete outrage!

Oops, sorry, that turned into a rant didn't it, sorry! Well, would be interested to see what people think about using HHO off a seperate battery perhaps?

[Stig]

Stig: I'm right with you on that notion in the case of the eco electricity cars out there, in that one must remember what is involved in producing the electricity that powers them, and they are not miracle machines.
However, in this instance the electricity to power the generator is produced by the alternator, which (as far as I understand - correct me if I'm wrong) does not consume, it only produces energy for the battery from kinetic energy.
As I see it the benefit of HHO is that it makes the engine use less fuel and makes it burn it better... as such perhaps it would not be a 'free lunch' but a discounted one!

My point was that yes, the alternator's turning kinetic energy into electrical energy so you need to put more kinetic energy in and hence you use more fuel to do that. It's not really as bad as trying to build a perpetual motion machine as I'm sure you can get some benefit by running the alternator in a more efficient way than it usually is. A difficult equation to calculate though as you'd need to know the characteristics of your alternator (mechanical drag vs. electrical power out) as well as the efficiency of electrolysis. Then there's the problem of how to lean out the fuelling from petrol to compensate for the hydrogen going in - maybe a modern fuel injected engine would compensate anyway.

It's an interesting idea and could improve engine efficiency. Though saying things like "a running water powered car" on the website is at best disingenuous.

It does also beg the question as to why car manufacturers aren't doing this to improve mpg already as that's a big selling point these days.


I don't think you'll get many folks on here arguing with you about durable cars vs. the scrappage scheme.

[GeorgeHurst]

Hi stig,

Yes, I think the website copy is a little over the top at times!

I hadn't considered the fact that more current needed for the generator would need more fuel to create the energy from the alternator, and indeed how to limit the fuel in relation to the hydrogen. Perhaps it is the kind of thing that needs to be designed into an engine rather than added in.

Its a shame it's not as simple / effective as the website suggests, I was getting very enthusiastic about my potential accumulation of eco brownie points!

[mike.perry]

Disillusioned? George

[GeorgeHurst]

haha, yes indeed somewhat, by no means waving a red flag with a star and sickle on it or carving an anarchy symbol into my forehead - i just find it sickening how ineffectual western governments are, particularly with the international responsibility they hold, and how they spend so much time and money on 'growth' when every authority on sustainability says that the is the complete opposite of what we should be doing!

[ColinP]

To expand a little on the science...

In order to produce hydrogen from water, you need to pass an electric current through it (OK, that's this is the industiral process).
Water is a very poor conductor, so normally we would add an electrolyte - typically salt (sodium chloride).

In order to separate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms you need to put in an amount of electircal energy. Because we're dealing with "real" chemistry, the energy put in is actually a bit greater than that required to split the bonding.

This means that if you look at the system, we input more energy to split the atoms apart than can be recovered by burning the hydrogen and oxygen produced.
Many of these HHO systems state that they use some from of magic catalyst - unhappily these have not been demonstrated outside the websites of the people selling the manuals and technology.

In a car, electrical energy is produced by burning petrol to turn the alternator - again, we need to put more energy into the alternator than is recovered as electrical energy.

Unless there's a previously unknown process going on - we're still stuck with the laws of thermodynamics and mass/energy conservation.

There's been no hint that any HHO system has re-defined the simple physics that's understood world-wide, so it probably is too good to be true.

Cheers

Colin

[GeorgeHurst]

Thanks for that detailed description Colin. That's a huge shame but makes perfect sense now understanding the science of it.

Maybe someone out there will develop the 'magic catalyst' and away it will go, fingers crossed!

Cheers,
George

[thehunters]

Hello all!
I`ve been reading all your threads on HHO and still myself find it very interesting. I played around with Hydrogen in the garage last year doing different experiments and personally find that the amps required to lower fuel consumption are very high indeed. My Moggy couldn`t keep up and before any of you, should want to try - first change to Neg. earth and get rid of the old dynymo, only a very good alternator could ever hope to even get a look in at producing any where enough power. Although an older car ( like on of our moggys ) is ideal in the sense it has no cat. or eproms ect. as on a regulated Cat. the mixture is measured and alltered. When parts of modern systems go wrong on a more modern car, the system automatically set things far too rich.
Good Luck !

[rayofleamington]

is ideal in the sense it has no cat. or eproms ect. as on a regulated Cat. the mixture is measured and alltered.

However - a Minor SU carb does not alter the mixture either, so with or without Hydrogen you'll put the same amount of fuel in the air mixture.
Maybe one of the better engine technologies like those used on dual fuel cars could cope with the cange in fuel needed. Also remember that most modern cars (for quite a long time now) have a lambda sensor to prevent overfuelling.

Either way, the hydrogen produced will give less energy than the amount required to produce it. If that wasn't the case, then we'd have been using Hydrogen for most things for decades already.