Recon cylinder head issues

Post by **nick88highline** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:32 pm

Discovered I had a problem with the number 4 exhaust valve so took the head off and ordered a recon as I needed the car running asap. After spending a lot of time preparing and the fitting the recon head I noticed water weeping from the head gasket near the oil filler dipstick (shown below) a few seconds after starting the engine. Bolts were initially torqued to 40ft/lbs then up to 44 after I noticed the leak. I used a new 'good quality' copper head gasket without any sealer or grease. I have removed the recon head and uploaded some pictures of the pitting around the one of the main water holes. This hole mates to the 'blanking plug' on the block but appears so badly pitted that I don't see how the gasket can seal around it. Is this recon head a dud?

Block showing small leak:

Pitted water hole

Block 'blanking plug'

Post by **MarkyB** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:27 pm

The pitting is minimal, shouldn't cause a problem.
It looks like the head has been skimmed up to three quarters of the way up the second picture but not the rest.
That might be the problem.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:17 pm

That pitting shouldn't cause a problem - but neither should it leak water! As for " head has been skimmed up to three quarters of the way up the second picture " - Ehh?
Who did this marvellous 'reconditioning' (whatever that is - when applied to a head!) job - and have you asked them for another head ?

Post by **nick88highline** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:28 pm

bmcecosse wrote:That pitting shouldn't cause a problem - but neither should it leak water! As for " head has been skimmed up to three quarters of the way up the second picture " - Ehh?
Who did this marvellous 'reconditioning' (whatever that is - when applied to a head!) job - and have you asked them for another head ?

The head came from a very well known Morris Minor parts supplier. I was going to use a local firm to recon my existing head (which has far less pitting) but they were very busy and not able to do it as quickly as I wanted. Now I'm starting to get worried about what to do next. Surely it can't be that hard to fit a new head assuming the block and head are clean and flat and the gasket is good?

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:33 pm

Still at a loss as to exactly what this 'reconditioning' could be ? Did they grind in the valves ? Maybe new guides fitted ? You could have done all that to your own head in about 4 hours! You will just need to complain back to the 'well know' etc (although you won't tell us who!) and demand another head - one that doesn't leak! Is it a 948 or 1098 engine ?

Post by **nick88highline** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:44 pm

bmcecosse wrote:Still at a loss as to exactly what this 'reconditioning' could be ? Did they grind in the valves ? Maybe new guides fitted ? You could have done all that to your own head in about 4 hours! You will just need to complain back to the 'well know' etc (although you won't tell us who!) and demand another head - one that doesn't leak! Is it a 948 or 1098 engine ?

Well it was supplied as a complete recon unleaded head for the 1098cc engine which I have in my '68 car. The car had an unleaded head fitted in 1999 (which obviously had failed) and has done about 30,000 miles since then. I only found out today that it was leaking after spending all of yesterday fitting the recon head. I will admit to having little experience with Minors, but I am mechanically minded and have been working on cars for years. Not sure what the rules are regarding mentioning supplier names

I'm now tempted to buy the kit required to sort out my old head....

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:50 pm

Indeed - send that one back as 'not fit for purpose'. Amazing (no , actually it's not!) that an 'unleaded' head would fail - after 30,000 miles. The secret to success is regular checking - and if needs be re-adjusting - of the exhaust valve gaps. Set them to 15 thou and check every 3,000 miles or so. You really don't need an 'unleaded' head- especially one that is useless after relatively low mileage.

Post by **LouiseM** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:15 pm

Not sure what the rules are regarding mentioning supplier names

Positive comments are fine but negative ones are not. Take a look at the Terms & Conditions if unsure.

Post by **nick88highline** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:24 pm

Many thanks for all the replies so far!

Just re-examined the new head gasket that went on with the recon head and noticed some ridging around the water holes. The original head gasket was more or less flat all over. I have attached a picture which hopefully shows the ridging along with thin 'scratch-like' lines between the holes. Could this be a problem, or is the head really no good?

linearaudio · Post by **linearaudio** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:14 pm

Before jumping to conclusions about the head; if it has been fresh flycut as it rather appears, then it ought to be flat! So, get an engineers rule and a set of feeler gauges. If you can get more than about 1 1/2 thou between the straight edge and the head in the suspect area, then reject the head. (Also do the same with the block face). Though some famed people on this board have also stated that a weep from this area is ok!

I know that if I loosen the front head bolt on that side of my head, it immediately starts to dribble, so I guess the sealing is maybe a little marginal!

Post by **MarkyB** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:55 am

" head has been skimmed up to three quarters of the way up the second picture " - Ehh?

Close examination of the head surface shown in the picture which is second from the top reveals markings suggesting a fly cut.
These markings do not extend over the whole visible surface but cease about three quarters of the way up the surface that can be seen in the picture.

linearaudio · Post by **linearaudio** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:46 am

MarkyB wrote:
" head has been skimmed up to three quarters of the way up the second picture " - Ehh?
Close examination of the head surface shown in the picture which is second from the top reveals markings suggesting a fly cut.
These markings do not extend over the whole visible surface but cease about three quarters of the way up the surface that can be seen in the picture.

Not on my screen! However, the bottom picture of the block [/i]appears to show some possible water pitting in the "suspect" area (quite noticeable in the shadow of the stud) although the general face seems to have been cleaned up (emery papered??).
It is possible that the old head/gasket had bedded down, possibly with some over-torqueing, and sealed the joint in the past, and now that you have a flat head on a not-so-flat block the problem is showing up again, hence my comment about not condemning the head straight away! Do some flatness checks first!

IF it is the block a bit out then I would contemplate using some sealant in that area on re-assembly, it isn't a high-pressure area, only the rings around the bores are (if the combustion pressure is getting past those rings and out to the block edge then you do have problems!

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:46 pm

There is a tiny area right at the top of the picture that looks less than perfect - but not much in it. I'm surprised the hole with pitting around dosn't match up with a cooling water hole in the block. I don't have a spare 1098 any more - so I can't check! But I agree - a smear of silicon sealer around that and re-assemble.
The head gasket looks fine.

Post by **MarkyB** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:02 pm

Something isn't right if the head gasket still has ridging on it after it's been squashed between two flat surfaces.

You could drop the head on without a gasket.
It should go all the way down and show no signs of rocking.

Not sure if you could use engineers blue to check the fit?

From the picture, the ridges in the gasket look quite deep, considering the circumstances.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:37 pm

I assumed that was a new gasket - not one that had been used!

Post by **eastona** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:56 pm

I've found most sealing problems between head and block after a head swap have been because either -

i) the head/block aren't really clean, i.e. every trace of old hylomar, head gasket and general detritus need to be removed.

ii) the gasket has been dented/scratched/bent or squashed before fitting. I know it seems a bit daft, but the copper gaskets are quite soft, and need to be treated with a bit of care during storage/transit.

iii) You did use a new gasket didn't you?

of course, this rules out the head/block being warped, as others have said.

It's a pain, and it's happened to me before, especially when I've been in a rush. I've had better results with the non-copper gaskets, but I seem to be in an odd minority with that one.

Andrew

Post by **nick88highline** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:27 am

Thanks to all.
Just put it all back together again for the second time with another new head gasket but this time using Universal Blue sealant and although it's still leaking it's not as bad. I suspect I cleaned the block too well (using nylon dremel brush) and removed rust from pits on the block surface which now provide a path for water leaks. Both block and head are flat so it must be a combination of pitting on the block and perhaps on the head.
I'll try adding some stop leak to the cooling system. This has only got to last until I get my big block V8...no, I mean 1275 or similar (ie, spruced up 1098) in the next year or so, but that's a thread for another day....

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:13 pm

Torque it down again 44 ftlbf - after the first heat cycle. And re-adjust the valve gaps!