this is the worst bit on the whole car
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thanks for the time .
is it worth doing
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morrisminormad
- Minor Friendly
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:32 pm
- MMOC Member: No
is it worth doing
hi there i would like it know if you though this car is worth restoring here are some pictures<br>
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<br> the engine and gear box was taken out about 4 months ago because the engine was seized from the cold over the winter. the gear box was used on another project here are some more pictures<br>
this is the worst bit on the whole car
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<br> this comes close<br>
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thanks for the time .
this is the worst bit on the whole car
<br><br>
thanks for the time .
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cadetchris
- Minor Legend
- Posts: 1182
- Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:38 pm
- MMOC Member: Yes
If you are a proficient welder and you are doing the work yourself then I'd say yes - If you are planning on outsourcing, the costs will never justify the end value of the car unfortunately.... There is a lot of bodged work already done which will need to be cut out and done properly and this could wel give you additional problems with shell alignment / door fitting etc.....
[sig]8426[/sig]
Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php
Compare the Minors - Simples !! http://mog.myfreeforum.org/index.php
It's already been said - no sense paying a professional to do this. If you can store it and do a lot yourself, I don't see that it's beyond hope.
In the pictures, I like the look of the sill. The bottom panel of it may be crusty, though. If that's good, it just needs the horizontal piece to fill in what's missing. This can be bent over to form the piece which holds the bolt-on sill finisher which sits under the door, or a strip can be seam welded on to achieve the same result. The crossmember and jacking point can be attended to at the same time. I cut the floor and do the crossmember from above. In fact I work it out so I do most of the welding from above, even if it means cutting off good metal to get access....it soon goes back on.
If you want to restore it to original condition, then you'd have to buy the panels. The cost of these quickly mounts up. If, like me, you are not pedantic, a piece of sheet steel 2m x 1m cost me about twenty quid, and I did a lot with it. You would need two sheets.......one just over 1mm thick, for inner wings etc, and another 1.5mm thick for chassis. This thickness is hard to bend nicely, so I build up with separate pieces of the profile, then seam weld and grind flat.
It takes time to fabricate the pieces, but I enjoy that. Cutting off the rubbish is not so nice, and sometimes dangerous.
The front inner wing? Not difficult. I've returned a picture to show how I did it. The same idea for the rear inner wings - piece by piece, with full-penetration seam welds. The curved part of the front inner wing I did in full with three pieces of sheet steel, using the natural curvature when you bend it to get the shape, and this was surprisingly easy. I bent it by pushing the pieces into place from the wheel side once all the edges had been prepared (nice and straight), tacked them into place, and cut off the overhangs as required. Then seam-welded everything up, slowly, to avoid distortion.
The rear inner wing and its connection with the outer panel? A patient job, using a bright inspection lamp behind the welds along the top to make sure you don't have any pin holes. Pin-holing in other places is not so bad, but along the top of the rear inner wing, you really need to keep water from the wheel spray from getting through and causing bubbling in the paint.
It's a big job, judging by the pictures, but I'd take it on, for myself. I've done worse, and lived to tell the tale! The rust doesn't have that 'cancerous' look of a car which has caught rusting really badly, and it's everywhere.
In the past, I have cut the following off one of my Moggie's and not lost the final shape and geometry:
All of the floor; both crossmember ends; all the sill areas except for the top and inner side of the main sill box sections, next to the door; most of the chassis running from the 'B' post to the rear spring shackles; large sections of the front and rear inner wings. I don't recommend this, but just point out it's possible. It needed a bit of careful measurement before the final strong welds were done. I keep the bonnet, both doors and the bootlid in place as a guide.
The advantage of doing a good job on something like this is that you know what you've got in the end. If you buy a Minor that looks good, you don't know what's going on out of sight in the chassis, and under paint and any underseal (ugh!....paint it, and maintain the paint!).
I've just uploaded a picture from another post in the forum to show the nice curved shape you can get from sheet steel pieces. The third piece is a smallish one, up out of sight. Where the bottom curved piece
joins the engine bay floor is in fact a 90 degree join, as per original.....it looks curved in the picture, and the join is more or less invisible - a trick of the light only.<br>
<br><br>
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In the pictures, I like the look of the sill. The bottom panel of it may be crusty, though. If that's good, it just needs the horizontal piece to fill in what's missing. This can be bent over to form the piece which holds the bolt-on sill finisher which sits under the door, or a strip can be seam welded on to achieve the same result. The crossmember and jacking point can be attended to at the same time. I cut the floor and do the crossmember from above. In fact I work it out so I do most of the welding from above, even if it means cutting off good metal to get access....it soon goes back on.
If you want to restore it to original condition, then you'd have to buy the panels. The cost of these quickly mounts up. If, like me, you are not pedantic, a piece of sheet steel 2m x 1m cost me about twenty quid, and I did a lot with it. You would need two sheets.......one just over 1mm thick, for inner wings etc, and another 1.5mm thick for chassis. This thickness is hard to bend nicely, so I build up with separate pieces of the profile, then seam weld and grind flat.
It takes time to fabricate the pieces, but I enjoy that. Cutting off the rubbish is not so nice, and sometimes dangerous.
The front inner wing? Not difficult. I've returned a picture to show how I did it. The same idea for the rear inner wings - piece by piece, with full-penetration seam welds. The curved part of the front inner wing I did in full with three pieces of sheet steel, using the natural curvature when you bend it to get the shape, and this was surprisingly easy. I bent it by pushing the pieces into place from the wheel side once all the edges had been prepared (nice and straight), tacked them into place, and cut off the overhangs as required. Then seam-welded everything up, slowly, to avoid distortion.
The rear inner wing and its connection with the outer panel? A patient job, using a bright inspection lamp behind the welds along the top to make sure you don't have any pin holes. Pin-holing in other places is not so bad, but along the top of the rear inner wing, you really need to keep water from the wheel spray from getting through and causing bubbling in the paint.
It's a big job, judging by the pictures, but I'd take it on, for myself. I've done worse, and lived to tell the tale! The rust doesn't have that 'cancerous' look of a car which has caught rusting really badly, and it's everywhere.
In the past, I have cut the following off one of my Moggie's and not lost the final shape and geometry:
All of the floor; both crossmember ends; all the sill areas except for the top and inner side of the main sill box sections, next to the door; most of the chassis running from the 'B' post to the rear spring shackles; large sections of the front and rear inner wings. I don't recommend this, but just point out it's possible. It needed a bit of careful measurement before the final strong welds were done. I keep the bonnet, both doors and the bootlid in place as a guide.
The advantage of doing a good job on something like this is that you know what you've got in the end. If you buy a Minor that looks good, you don't know what's going on out of sight in the chassis, and under paint and any underseal (ugh!....paint it, and maintain the paint!).
I've just uploaded a picture from another post in the forum to show the nice curved shape you can get from sheet steel pieces. The third piece is a smallish one, up out of sight. Where the bottom curved piece
joins the engine bay floor is in fact a 90 degree join, as per original.....it looks curved in the picture, and the join is more or less invisible - a trick of the light only.<br>
I'd use this shell as a learning piece, so much has gone oe been bodged that the whole shell could be distorted. Unless you have the correct measurements you might simply be building another bent Minor but with new panels.
I'd say if you are not yet a welder then do not attempt this as a full resto, merely do parts of it to learn the technique etc. If you can weld then just be careful as building a car from this point requires an understanding of the cars structure and the process of rebuilding including the distortion that can be caused through a huge amout of welding.
I'd say if you are not yet a welder then do not attempt this as a full resto, merely do parts of it to learn the technique etc. If you can weld then just be careful as building a car from this point requires an understanding of the cars structure and the process of rebuilding including the distortion that can be caused through a huge amout of welding.
Hi Jonathan!
I look at such as car in this way:
There have been many bodges, but perhaps not all at the same time. And most likely, when the welding was done, it was with the minimum of preparation, if any at all. More likely, just a square of metal welded over the hole.
In view of this, it is unlikey that any distortion took place, because no extensive cutting was ever done.
Any merit to this line of thinking? I would respect your opinion - from what I know about you, you seem to have a great deal of experience under your belt. At a professional level, too.
I look at such as car in this way:
There have been many bodges, but perhaps not all at the same time. And most likely, when the welding was done, it was with the minimum of preparation, if any at all. More likely, just a square of metal welded over the hole.
In view of this, it is unlikey that any distortion took place, because no extensive cutting was ever done.
Any merit to this line of thinking? I would respect your opinion - from what I know about you, you seem to have a great deal of experience under your belt. At a professional level, too.
I'd say that fairly extensive welding to the rear arches could have caused the rear end to have dropped ,by heat shrink alone.
The flitch rot may have allowed the flitch to sink, and maybe affect the hinge pillar,when repaired this could have pulled the chassis leg out of alignment, the floor will most certainlt have dropped due to inadequate support.
These suggestions are obviously worst case but if the car is rebuilt without taking these possibilities into account then the final restored car will run the risk of being a new panel, distorted copy, of the what we see now.
I don't mean to paint a desperate picture for the restorer, but many can weld but few understand that the induced heat can cause huge problems which are difficult to remedy.
The flitch rot may have allowed the flitch to sink, and maybe affect the hinge pillar,when repaired this could have pulled the chassis leg out of alignment, the floor will most certainlt have dropped due to inadequate support.
These suggestions are obviously worst case but if the car is rebuilt without taking these possibilities into account then the final restored car will run the risk of being a new panel, distorted copy, of the what we see now.
I don't mean to paint a desperate picture for the restorer, but many can weld but few understand that the induced heat can cause huge problems which are difficult to remedy.
Points noted! Food for thought for anyone thinking of a DIY welding project.
I only ever do my own cars, so if I ever did make a pig's ear of something, I'd have to go back to myself and complain! Then I could sort it out.
I've posted before that welding requires a lot of thought aforehand, and constant checking as you go. Start with the doors lined up as best you can, as well as the bonnet and boot lid, as I wrote previously, and you have reference points.
I have a slow welding technique.........just about half an inch at a time, with a wait for cooling before continuing. I never do long seam welds that generate the intense heat. Of course, a professional welder working to pay the bills cannot afford to do it as slowly as me.
I usually weld out of doors, now in a beautiful forest. That way, I don't breathe in the awful smoke from the welding, and I can contemplate nature while I wait for the weld to cool.
Learning to weld is fairly quick. As you say, learning to do it well is a different matter!
With a Morris Minor, though, especially if it were made in the fifties, the original production models were not wonderfully accurate regarding door gaps and the like. If you are not very pedantic regarding these aspects, the important thing is to get the mounting points for the running gear accurate, so the car doesn't 'crab', and the tyres wear evenly.
I only ever do my own cars, so if I ever did make a pig's ear of something, I'd have to go back to myself and complain! Then I could sort it out.
I've posted before that welding requires a lot of thought aforehand, and constant checking as you go. Start with the doors lined up as best you can, as well as the bonnet and boot lid, as I wrote previously, and you have reference points.
I have a slow welding technique.........just about half an inch at a time, with a wait for cooling before continuing. I never do long seam welds that generate the intense heat. Of course, a professional welder working to pay the bills cannot afford to do it as slowly as me.
I usually weld out of doors, now in a beautiful forest. That way, I don't breathe in the awful smoke from the welding, and I can contemplate nature while I wait for the weld to cool.
Learning to weld is fairly quick. As you say, learning to do it well is a different matter!
With a Morris Minor, though, especially if it were made in the fifties, the original production models were not wonderfully accurate regarding door gaps and the like. If you are not very pedantic regarding these aspects, the important thing is to get the mounting points for the running gear accurate, so the car doesn't 'crab', and the tyres wear evenly.
I have a slow welding technique.........just about half an inch at a time, with a wait for cooling before continuing. I never do long seam welds that generate the intense heat. Of course, a professional welder working to pay the bills cannot afford to do it as slowly as me.
We use the same method MA which is why we might seem to be more expensive than others. But atleast its done once and done right.
No restorer worthy of the name would perform long welds.
We use the same method MA which is why we might seem to be more expensive than others. But atleast its done once and done right.
No restorer worthy of the name would perform long welds.