Driving without using the clutch (except for setting off).

[Mick_Anik]

I am curious to learn how many members know how to drive without using the clutch. My Dad taught me....he remembers the old 'crash' gearboxes without synchronisation.
Say, you're in fourth and coming up to a sharpish bend. You can ease off the gas and just ease the lever into neutral, without using the clutch, then, again without using the clutch, rev up sharply and push the lever into third as the revs fall to a certain level ie when the two relevant gearbox components are momentarily spinning at the same time. You can find this point by applying, as you're waiting for the revs to fall when in neutral, light pressure on the lever in the direction of the gear you want to go to. When the synchronisation arrives, you get the feeling of a door opening, and the lever will move into gear.
It takes a bit of practice.....better start off with an unwanted old banger! Like anything, it's a cinch in the end.
I don't know whether this technique appreciably increases fuel consumption (who cares?....it's good fun!), but it saves wear on the baulk rings and clutch parts. Once you've set off, there is no need to use the clutch at all, until after you've stopped again, just to pull away smoothly.
With practice, you can get into first gear without having to make the dead-stop - a kind of DIY first gear synchro system.

Going up through the gears is easy....as you finish revving up in first, ease off the gas pedal and ease the lever into neutral, pause briefly, and gently ease into second as the revs continue to fall. Rev up in second, and repeat the same to llocate third and finally fourth.

I use the word 'ease' rather than 'push'. Once you've got the hang of it, it's a very laid-back, relaxed kind of operation. All you are doing is changing gear at the moment when the relevant components are spinning at the same speed, and thus mesh smoothly. The baulk rings in the gearbox bring spinning components to the same speed (synchronisation) by acting as a brake on one of them - thus causing wear, albeit gradual in the case of a gentle driver.

All this is easier to do than describe!

[d_harris]

Its good isn't it? My ex used to tell me off for driving clutchless. She didn't think it was "right"

[nigelr2000]

Used to do the same on my BSA A10 motorbike, it just fell into gear as you say you get to feel it. Came in usefull when the cluch cable broke l managed to ride it 10 miles home without use of a clutch through the centre of Norwich, meant slowing right up waiting for lights to go to green without actually stopping, its amazing how slow you can ride a bike and still stay upright

[8009STEVE]

Have done this recovering a 44 tonne artic amongst other trucks and cars and bikes.

[plastic_orange]

I never use my bike's clutch after first gear on up changes. Minors are easy to do, but the best ever I found was a Ford Anglia 105E.

Pete

[Blaketon]

Clutch cable stop broke on my Mk 1 VW Scirocco, so I had to drive clutchless (The VW gearbox was really good). I have also moved cars for people where the clutch hydraulics/cable had gone.

I just control the throttle so there is no load on the drivetrain, slip it into neutral and adjust the revs so that it matches the next ratio. I slight pressure on the lever will allow it to slip into gear.

When I rode a motorcycle, I changed clutchless (Easier with a dog box), as the damned thing was so underpowered that uphill you didn't want loose any forward momentum.

[eastona]

Had to do this to get into work once. Tricky to start off (I just started it up in 1st) but easy once you're going. Makes junctions "interesting".

Really easy in the minor, a colleague behind barely noticed anything wrong....except the juddery starts!


Andrew

[d_harris]

I've never quite worked out how to start the car rolling without the clutch, and tend to change up clutchless as a matter of habit anyway

[paulk]

I used to start in 1st then go from there. Noisy but works

[Alec]

Hello Dan,

"I've never quite worked out how to start the car rolling without the clutch"

You need to stop the engine, engage first and restart, just accelerate when the engine fires. The starter motor is capable of moving a car in gear but don't do it for too long as it will get very hot. That used to be a trick in getting cars out of mud, but I have never tried it so cannot verify the effectiveness?

Alec

[Peetee]

The VW gearbox was really good

I'll go along with that. One of the spring plate fingers broke on my Polo and made using the clutch nearly impossible. Worst thing about it was I was driving in convoy on the way to a week in Cornwall! I managed to get from Salisbury to Penzance (about 200 miles) without stopping mostly in 4th - screaming round the roundabouts on the A30 just so I didn't have to change down.
When the mechanic changed it he said it was unfortunate the finger broke as the friction plate was in excellent order - with 92,000 miles on it! Even more amazing because 30K miles before I had had the engine tuned to produce 90bhp instead of the factory 55.

[rayofleamington]

The Minor box is only crash on first gear. On all the other gears you'll wear the synchronisers much more by not opening the clutch.
My day job is gearshift control - sad but true.

[bmcecosse]

I agree -this is an excellent way to wear out the syncromesh cones - which are very weak at the best of times in the Minor box!!
Can't see any advantage myself in normal use. I did drive a Mini home from Carlisle recently with no clutch hydraulics - can't say it was much 'fun' - but I did reach home.

[Mick_Anik]

Could someone explain why the synchronisers would wear out more quickly, please. I've never talked to anyone about this, I just assumed that by not using them they would wear less. I've had a think - is it because they remain pressed on to their mating faces?

[bmcecosse]

Because -in most of the stories above - the lever is being pulled back to 'feel' the gears into place - the syncro ring is what is doing the 'feeling' - and they are having to do it against a load instead of doing it 'free' in a de-clutched situation.

[rayofleamington]

Could someone explain why the synchronisers would wear out more quickly, please. I've never talked to anyone about this, I just assumed that by not using them they would wear less.

you can't get in to gear until you've slid past the synchro V-teeth. To get past the synchro teeth, the input shaft and output shaft speeds have to synchronise (clever design of angles to ensure linear sliding force > synch torque). When speeds are synchronised the synch torque becomes zero and the linear sliding can occur which aligns the hub mechanism.
With the clutch closed, the synchro torque can not synchronise the speeds (because the inertia of the engine is far too big) therefore the speed differential at the synchro cone is effected only by the engine speed, regardless of the effort applied.

When the engine speed reaches the correct speed (e.g. when falling) the synchro will release but by the time it starts moving the speeds will start to diverge again as the engine speed is changing. Either you have a bigger impact to the engagemet V-teeth or you start to hold the engine speed using the synchro torque - neither is good.

The synchro cone would normally synchronise the speeds in a few hundred milliseconds - the synchro loaded time with a clutchless shift could be easily 1 second. The heat created in a 'high energy' shift would wreck modern synchro cones (bonded paper element) very quickly. The minor synchro cones are less prone to rapid damage but it will greatly increase the wear rate.

Motorbikes often have 'dog' boxes (operated by a rotary shift drum) and a dog box does not have any synchronisers to wear out. Leaving the clutch closed creates a bigger impact load to the drive train so although it will work, it's not advisable to do this all the time (unless the whole drive train is designed specifically for that)

[bmcecosse]

Blimey Ray - that's two things we have agreed on recently!

[Mick_Anik]

Thanks very much! One of the delights of being alive is to engage with people who know much more than oneself.

I shall stop doing this now, and save it for emergency situations only.

Who on earth would want a car with bonded paper components in the gearbox? Whatever next? Papier mache pistons? Bakelite valves?

[rayofleamington]

Blimey Ray - that's two things we have agreed on recently!

rather like a stopped watch and the real time?

Who on earth would want a car with bonded paper components in the gearbox

pretty much everyone who buys a new car... Just imagine it as a skin of friction material - like a thin clutch disk in a cone shape

[Dru]

I once stripped down the clutch of a CZ motorbike whose plates had cork pads on for friction. Very nice they looked too