Lowering it!

[youngun]

I saw another minor (series 2) going round my local town the other day. It looked lower than standard, so Im guessing they've used one of the lowering block kits available. seeing as Ill soon be doing a full rebuild on my suspension and I liked the look of the lowered moggy I thought I might get a set of lowering blocks and U-bolts for the rear? But how do you lower the front, is it just a matter of setting the torsion bars a bit lower (I dont know how to do this but Im sure I can work it out!).

Any tips, measurements etc that I need to know?

Thanks,
YG

[rayofleamington]

Any tips,

you'll end up smacking your bump stops all the time so you need to make sure they are very good condition.
When the rear is lowered significantly, you get almost no suspension travel, which gives a difficult ride and most people would hate it.

[nslocomotive2]

well, mine sits almost on the bump stops at the rear, and yes it does hit them every so often, but if your careful its not s bad. I think mine sits low because of spring fatigue but as most people my age spend thousands lowering there cars, I get mine to do it for nothing Someone did suggest shortening the bump stops on mine to improve the comfort...

When you work out the front please share the info.

[rayofleamington]

Front is very easy! Uload the torsion bar, then alter the adjuster plate at the rear for increments of ~1/4" or move by one spline for a bigger adjustment (1" or was it 1.5" per spline..)

[youngun]

Hmm lowering doesnt sound popular? Wondering if I should or not now. The kits from ESM lower the rear by 1 1/2" I suppose I could slightly shorten the U-bolts and re-tap them to give say a 1" lower instead?

YG

[charlie_morris_minor]

the lowering kit for the rear consists of a 1.5" block that sits between your spring and axle hence the need for long u bolt.

Unless you have access to a milling machine to chop the lowering block straight you could find it difficult to get your axle to sit straight.

As for the front yes you can unwind the torsion bars.. i can not remember the exact limit before you lose the effectivness of the torsion bar but i think it is 1 or 1.5inch before they become useless..i think there is a sticky in one of the sections on it.

I lowered my saloon by 3" by using marina van torsion bars and 3" lowering blocks at the rear. great for a few thousand miles until the springs lost there temper and naturally sagged about 1.5" a new set of of 1.5 blocks sorted it. As for the bump stops yes they need to be there ( true on all cars ) but you can always cut an inch or so off to allow them to work.

would i do it again.. yes and I am, but this time to my traveller, I loved the way the saloon handled I only found it a pain going over sleeping policeman but lets face it, a standard moggy does not find them fun either.

[youngun]

No car finds them fun to be honest!

I think Ill go for it, ive got some old bumpstops I can chop up. Whats the harm in trying?

YG

[autolycus]

Whats the harm in trying?

YG

1. You'll have to notify your insurer, and they may (should) load your premium.

2. If you don't, when you have an accident they may a) refuse to cover you b) cancel your policy, which you'll have to declare for evermore.

3. If you need to ask here, you probably don't know enough about suspension design and vehicle dynamics to know what effect your mods will have.

What was the benefit again?

Kevin

[charlie_morris_minor]

1) why does improving your handling load your premium?

The only thing that loaded my premium was fitting metro seats something about making it more attractive to thieves.

2) yes you should always tell your insurance company of any changes, no matter how big or small.

3) It is always good to ask questions rather than blunder in and repeat other peoples mistakes.

the benefit improved handling!

[jonathon]

You will be fine lowering by just one spline and 1" blocks at the back. Just cyt down the tot front bump stops and the rears by an inch.
Sort out some decent dampers and front end geometry and away you go.

[youngun]

Whats the harm in trying?

YG

3. If you need to ask here, you probably don't know enough about suspension design and vehicle dynamics to know what effect your mods will have.


Kevin

Of course I dont know anything about vehicle dynamics, Im only 18. Hence why Im checking on here!

[dp]

Well the one spline at the front only costs time and you can put it back if you don't like it. Keep the old U bolts for the rear If you don't like that you are only down the cost of the u-bolt kit.

Just take it slow and mark the torsion bars before removal so you can see where they were.

[Roni]

And don't mark the bars with a centre punch, use a marker of some sort - paint or pen.

[autolycus]

c-m-m asked why "improving your handling" should alter your premium. In one sense, it doesn't matter "why" it does, but if your insurer thinks it should, that's one fewer insurer to choose from. They could probably produce statistics that show that the combination of young driver and a modified car - however it is modified - leads to more, or more serious, claims.

youngun admits he's still learning about vehicle dynamics - fair enough - but has started with the assumption that lowering is a Good Thing. Some of those who will say "yes, go ahead" may either not be all that clued up or experienced themselves, or may not have tried it, or may have been lucky so far, or may qualify their answers, as Jonathon did. "Sorting out front end geometry" is non-trivial, and what's optimum for track days may not be the best for road use in inexperienced hands.

My particular concern about lowering is that one is moving the kink in the displacement - load graph (i.e. the point at which the suspension suddenly stiffens up because you're squashing the bump stop), and I don't know what effect this has when it occurs, say, half-way round a bend when you hit a small bump. The original designers probably did know, and I'm sure those who design suspensions for a living, or who have suitable instrumentation on their cars, can model the effect. But I can't, and most readers here can't, and neither can we predict when the effect of these changes would be significant. It's a bit late, when you're heading for a tree, to say that it was handling "better" until then.

Modify your suspension when the only casualties if you get it wrong are your pride, your car, some Armco, and some other willing risk-takers - i.e for sprints, or track days, but I think you should leave it alone when the it's the front window of Sainsbury's that's at risk.

Kevin

[jonathon]

My particular concern about lowering is that one is moving the kink in the displacement - load graph (i.e. the point at which the suspension suddenly stiffens up because you're squashing the bump stop), and I don't know what effect this has when it occurs, say, half-way round a bend when you hit a small bump.

If lowering is performed correctly then I cannot see this position ever being reached. We used to lower 1 spline and have never experienced bumpstop contact even on the track.
When saying sort the front end geometry I did mean for road use. Even our track settings are proven to work on road.
If modifications are performed well and are based on good engineering then there is no issue with lowering, sure by the very nature of wanting better handling, this will be exploited to a degree on the road. Its no different to dropping in a 1275cc motor, in the fact that one needs to see the mod as a whole package with the rest of the car ,rather than an isolated upgrade.
My concerns about Minors are not mods ( with a few provisors) but basic neglect and lack of understanding in the general structure and the required levels of good mechanical skills and good welding techniques.

[youngun]

Thanks for all the replies. I see Ive opened a bit of a can of worms here.

I noticed someone mentioned about marking the torsion bars when removing them. I didnt do this when I took mine off nearly 2 years ago now (young and enthusiastic 16 yr old.......). Could this pose a problem when refitting them or is it only necessary if your adjusting ride height?

With a bit of luck Ill be a bit more clued up on vehicle dynamics this time next year as its included in the first year of my degree course!!

YG

[alex_holden]

Setting them up from scratch is a matter of trial and error. I reckon a good starting point is to set the vernier plates in the middle of their range and then set the arm to the highest notch that requires assistance from a jack to bolt it to the lower trunnion. Fit and adjust both sides at the same time - trying to do one at once leads to frustration (as I learned the hard way) because the amount of torsion on one side has an effect on the height of the other side too.

[charlie_morris_minor]

do not worry about opening cans of worms it happens all the time I even opened up a can the other day myself! just do not mention disc brakes!

back to your original question Sorry to say it can cause you a problem.

what is being discussed above is marking the exact spline on the torsion bar where it goes into the lower wish bone arm at the front and torsion bar rear arm at the back so as you lower the car a spline you can easily see where you have lowered it from so if you do not like it you can raise it back easily to the correct spline.

However i think from you question above you have completly removed your torsion bars from both the lower wish bone arm and rear mount if this is the case read on... if not ignore this next bit.. The problem is that the torsion bars have been twisted one direction all their life and if you swap them over drivers to passanger side and vice versa the twist is now in the opposite direction. The torsion bars will now be significantly weakend and will not work at all well and could if i understand correctly fail ( no doubt someone will be along to correct me on this ).

If you have removed them and do not know which is the passanger side and which is the drive side the safest thing to do is go and buy a new or second hand set which have been correctly marked. You will then be in for a fun time working out what the correct setting for your torsion bars is i.e. put them on the car.. look at the road hight and then adjust them accordingly i.e. up or down until you get the correct ride hight.. but i would not want to do this until the car is sitting on all four wheels engine in etc etc..

good luck with the degree what are you off to study?

charlie

[aupickup]

a good starting point is to put the rear vernier in the middle with torsion bar attached
the the front thick widhbone, put it on the spline ( keeping the torsion bar in line with the eyebolts) and measure down 17 inches from the bottom of the large round hole in teh inner wing to the centre of the fulcrum pin hole in the lower thick wish bone

this will give a good starting point,

[youngun]

I managed to remember which torsion bar was which today luckily! The one with the serverely worn eybolt pivot (or whatever the correct term is) is the one that goes on the nearside! It seems to me that setting the ride height will be a bummer. So is it best to just get them to a certain height, then drop engine etc into. Then once the whole car is back together, adjust and set them properly?

YG