Relocating the top damper (i.e. inboard pivot position) would adversly effect the bump steer which wasn't too bad on mine (with minor suspension). The inboard top and bottom pivots effect the geometry massively and should not be moved without regards the steering rack position and size (between inner ball joints). It is very easy to start moving things around and really mess it up!
I only determined the roll centre location at the ride height I was interested in but would expect it to be a bit higher with a slightly more normal ride height although I also expect the rollentre location to to be poor during the suspension travel at that height. When I ran it very low, the roll centre was located very well, it was just that it was too low, but once I knew where it was I could relate to how it felt and to correct it as best as I could.
What you really do not want is the lower arms to be lower at the out board end than the inner as this will lead to jacking during hard cornering.
To be honest, I wouldn't bother moving either top or bottom inboard pivots on the Minor unless you have a lot of horsepower and are driving it to the absolute limit. For road use my old front set up was more than adequate.
I think the worst bit of using the Minor front suspension is the fact that the F/R weight distribution is so poor (even with an A series) and is I believe what ultimately caught me out with that set up.
Martin
front suspension
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MartinB
- Minor Fan
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Misread your post sorry. Provided the rack inboard joints are inline with the upper and lower wishbone inboard joints then no it won't.bmcecosse wrote:If the damper could be mounted lower and slightly inboard so the arm was horizontal or slightly downwards at rest - that would surely help ??
It really needs to be mocked up at the ride height you are running with something like a string computer (from Allan Staniforth's book) to determine whether it is likely to do what you want it to.
Martin
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MartinB
- Minor Fan
- Posts: 172
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- Location: Weymouth, Dorset
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It really depends upon what you want it to do and the intended use you are going to give the car (daily or occasional driver, light or full loads, rough or smooth roads, driving style, etc), maintenance intervals and which engine etc.
Personally I think the Minor front suspension can be tweaked to improve handling and grip but is likely to be at the expense of some ride quality. You also need to determine the ride height/ground clearance you need, to improve the cornering you will need to lower the car which will then need stiffer springs to stop it whacking the bumpstops continually.
As always everything (chassis and suspension condition) on the Minor would need to be in top notch condition before any tweeks are carried out.
You should also consider the front and rear suspension together, they need to work in harmony.
Suspension is really about compromises and what ones you can live with.
Martin
Personally I think the Minor front suspension can be tweaked to improve handling and grip but is likely to be at the expense of some ride quality. You also need to determine the ride height/ground clearance you need, to improve the cornering you will need to lower the car which will then need stiffer springs to stop it whacking the bumpstops continually.
As always everything (chassis and suspension condition) on the Minor would need to be in top notch condition before any tweeks are carried out.
You should also consider the front and rear suspension together, they need to work in harmony.
Suspension is really about compromises and what ones you can live with.
Martin
Agree with the above, the Minor suspension is pretty adaptable for a more 'sporting' use. Lowering the car 1 spline brings in better dynamics but 2 splines can ruin it and be worse than the original set up.
I believe that probably 70-80% of Minors on the road have never had the suspension set up correctly. The difference to a properly set up car can be huge, and if you make a few subtle changes i.e 1/2 to 1 degree of negative this can improve cornering stability and grip.
Adjustable uprated tie bars are available to adjust KPI angles and caster. or to aid the correct set up of the original settings.
Cutting down the bump stops will offer longer travel for a lowered car but as said before no more than 1 spline.
Major changes to the set up might only be required when one introduces different engines, either Fiat TC, K series or Zetec. The addition of either of these requires definate uprating of the dampers , bushes and a need to balance the front and rear set up. As Martin says any uprating of the suspension should be seen as a complete package, otherwise you are just tinkering and can make the balance worse.
BM, the set up we are developing uses our existing bottom A arm but with the coil over mounted approximately 1" inboard of the lower trunnion, we have removed a sizable section of the inner wing through which we have fitted a 21/4" 10" coil over unit with a spring rate of 275lbs. The short top A arm has exactly the same pivot point as the original set up but will provide a much improved stability of the top mounts. This is a starting point for us regarding spring rate, but Avo have suggested a rate applicable to a 45-60 degree mounted unit. We will build in a full range of adjustment, but will not get too radical as the purpose of this exercise is stability and strength plus a more controlled spring and damper rate, as this car is to be used primarily for trackdays and fast road, (where permitting). The car will have a 2.0L Zetec producing a healthy 200bhp, and we fully intend on using every one!!
We still produce the current coil over kit which has proved very successful on mainly modded cars, and offers massive grip and control over any other commercially available system.
Hopefully the next few years will see the development of our own purpose built Minor racer, hopefully to challenge the current 'Fun Cup' VW Beetles. This car will have a bespoke chassis and fully independent suspension, with only one purpose, speed under control.
I believe that probably 70-80% of Minors on the road have never had the suspension set up correctly. The difference to a properly set up car can be huge, and if you make a few subtle changes i.e 1/2 to 1 degree of negative this can improve cornering stability and grip.
Adjustable uprated tie bars are available to adjust KPI angles and caster. or to aid the correct set up of the original settings.
Cutting down the bump stops will offer longer travel for a lowered car but as said before no more than 1 spline.
Major changes to the set up might only be required when one introduces different engines, either Fiat TC, K series or Zetec. The addition of either of these requires definate uprating of the dampers , bushes and a need to balance the front and rear set up. As Martin says any uprating of the suspension should be seen as a complete package, otherwise you are just tinkering and can make the balance worse.
BM, the set up we are developing uses our existing bottom A arm but with the coil over mounted approximately 1" inboard of the lower trunnion, we have removed a sizable section of the inner wing through which we have fitted a 21/4" 10" coil over unit with a spring rate of 275lbs. The short top A arm has exactly the same pivot point as the original set up but will provide a much improved stability of the top mounts. This is a starting point for us regarding spring rate, but Avo have suggested a rate applicable to a 45-60 degree mounted unit. We will build in a full range of adjustment, but will not get too radical as the purpose of this exercise is stability and strength plus a more controlled spring and damper rate, as this car is to be used primarily for trackdays and fast road, (where permitting). The car will have a 2.0L Zetec producing a healthy 200bhp, and we fully intend on using every one!!
We still produce the current coil over kit which has proved very successful on mainly modded cars, and offers massive grip and control over any other commercially available system.
Hopefully the next few years will see the development of our own purpose built Minor racer, hopefully to challenge the current 'Fun Cup' VW Beetles. This car will have a bespoke chassis and fully independent suspension, with only one purpose, speed under control.
I like your drawing morris62 - as you can see - on bump the top arm swings out and so the wheel develops +ve camber - exactly what we DON'T want! That's where some of the problems lie. Can either limit movement - or redesign that top arm. If it could be mounted lower and further outboard - and therefore shorter - it would be very much better!
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callyspoy
- Minor Legend
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Hello! i ahve different sizes front and rear. the rears are 7j 16inch, the fronts are i think 6.5j 15inch. the fronts do indeed sit pretty much in line with wing, i would imagine with full bump whilst steering they may rub, but i have NEVER done that yet, so i think they are fine. the rears are too wide, and yes, about an inch. if i get a chance i should really swap the a front to the rear and see how they look...
front suspension
Martin , you don't want an 'A' frame , what you need on the rear is a Mumford link , as Mallock used on their last generation live axle clubmans cars
Carl
Carl
johnathon,when i mention using an mgf front end on the minor you said you had fitted a metro front end. i was a bit confused i admit but now having just done mgf reseach i now understand, Doh?
so this leads me to another question, does the mgf use different hub/uprights or is it just the cv replacement fitting?
ps. any pic's yet
so this leads me to another question, does the mgf use different hub/uprights or is it just the cv replacement fitting?
ps. any pic's yet
[sig]7933[/sig]
excuse me i'm new
excuse me i'm new