Morris Minor cutting out when warm

[webbnuts]

Hi All,

I wonder if someone could shed some light on a problem i have with my father in law's 62 1024 Traveller.

It starts and runs fine from cold, but when its warm and he pulls up at a set of traffic lights it cuts out, and is difficult to restart. A local garage have replaced the carb and the coil, and apparantly set the points.

Is there anything this is most likey to be i should check first? I am fed up seeing him ripped of, firstly by [A Well known Trader - Moderated, Ray] for selling him it in the first place, and secondly by local garages who don't know what they are doing!! I did an engine change in my old morris, and like to think I am quite handy with a spanner, however i dont always know where to start! I can check or change anything you guys can suggest!!

Thanks in advance for your help.

Best regards,

Sam.

[bmcecosse]

Sccchhh - negative remarks there about a dearly beloved supplier - dunno how the Mods will see that!!
To the problem - is the idle speed high enough - is it possible when cold/choke in use the speed is higher and so the problem doesn't occur ? Could be clutch drag - if the clutch is going too far down. What happens if you slip into neutral and coast to a halt - does it cut out then ? I suggest initially just raise the idle speed slightly (good idea in winter anyway) and check if the idle mixture is correct using the little lift pin on the carb. Lift the piston slightly - if engine speeds up it's too rich, if it stumbles/slows it's too weak - and if nothing much happens it's just right!

[webbnuts]

Sorry for the negative remarks, but if you bought a £6500 car from anywhere else that failed its first MOT because of seatbelts (after covering less than 150 miles in the year - most of that was the drive back from [####]) you'd be annoyed as well! And "unleaded" from [####] means a nasty inline fuelsaver, rather than a proper unleaded head. I had a one of these in a MKII escort - melted the valve seats and had to upgrade the head anyway. Also, once i drove there (hour and half) to buy a disk brake conversion (500 quid odd) to be told that the parts man had just washed his hands and was going home. Thanks!

Anyway, thank you for your advice, i shall try and get a go in it so can try out the above. any other tips gratefully recieved.

Thanks again.

[rayofleamington]

Hi Sam,
Firstly - a lot of sympathy from me, as many have fallen foul of dealer's spin not being reflected in substance. This applies to many second hand car dealers, and yes Morris Minor's are not always immune

If you can't get fair treatement from the dealer, then trading standards / court etc.. may seem like a hassle but should be considered. You're welcome also to put your complaint on file with the club(more people should do this), but not via the website (we have to moderate these to avoid it getting shut down )

Back on topic - Stalling!
I can think of a few things that would affect stalling at traffic lights but few of these would stop it from restarting...

I'm not 100% sure from your description if/when the problems appeared or were changed when carb and other parts were changed - further info needed.

Fuel mixture - good advice from Roy above. The jet screw should be initially set at 12 flats from fully screwed in (presuming the correct carb and correct needle are fitted). Screwing it in weakens and screwing it out richens. It doesn't hurt to check the initial setting by screwing in to the stop and counting how many flats it was turned - you can always screw it back out to the same place afterwards if needed.

You mentioned points setting - I don't expect this is related to problems at idle however you should check it. Take the dizzy cap off and check the points gap when fully open (turn the engine slowly with starting handle to get the right position). If the gap is right, then also check the timing - it's not too hard if you have a 12v test light (a bulb on some long wires with crocodile clips). Put the +ve on the battery and -ve on the dizzy spade. Rotate the engine with handle until the rotor arm (in dizzy) is heading towards #1 lead in the cap. Continue to rotate very slowly with the bulb in sight but watching the bottom of the crank pulley. The light should go out at around 4 to 6 degrees Before TDC. There's a little indent mark on the pulley and the big pointer on the timing cover is 0 degrees (TDC). The other pointers are spaced a 5 degrees.
If it's somewhere 'normal' it won't be affecting the stall - if it's wildly out then it need re-setting before you try and diagnose other problems.

My first extra guess is that the throttle slide sticks in a raised position when warm (not unheard of). The effect of this is far too much fuel at idle, which can cause a stall. When trying to restart it will flood a warm engine and therefore be nearly impossible to restart. Checking this is best when it is playing up - remove the carb inlet so you can see the throttle slide and check that raises and falls with a 'plop' all the way back down.

Guess #2 - poor spark at low speed. Engine cranking speed is something like 400 or 500rpm and at this speed, poor ignition system may be a factor. It's simple to check by carrying a spare pulg - remove #1 lead and fit the spare plug lying on the block (should sit easily next to the thermostat housing when using #1 lead).
You should get a nice strong blue spark. For extra confidence you can check using all the leads but generally if #1 is ok the rest should be.

guess #3 - fuel supply. It's possible that the fuel pump is intermittent. If you are getting a regular tick at idle and a slow ticking when stalled, this is probably not the issue! If sometimes you hear no tick then check fuel supply ASAP.


If you can go over the history of the problem and parts changes in a bit more detail we might be able to think of other things to look for.

[rayofleamington]

Sccchhh - negative remarks there about a dearly beloved supplier - dunno how the Mods will see that!!

Sarcasm really isn't helpful here Roy - or maybe that wasn't sarcasm. Either way you know the website rules and why they are in place.
Having a dig at the moderators is childish IMHO. We don't set the rules - these were set by club national committee to allow the site to be used without risk of it being shut down by litigation.

[bmcecosse]

Wasn't a 'dig' at Mods Ray - although you have been known to 'dig' plenty at ME, and I never have made any personal comments about anyone on this board. I was mearly commenting that the wording was likely to be edited - and indeed it was - even though it was a straightforward statement of fact (not malicious comments) about a supplier!
I suspect that if anyone wants to know the supplier of this car - Sam will be only to happy to tell you via PM ! It's certainly not the first case from this supplier - who is well known for high charging and poor value!!

[aupickup]

well in this case pms are the way to go

and yes anyone would be annoyed for it to fail the mot and as you said a £6500 car or traveller is simply not on, i would get in touch with the supplier

[rayofleamington]

Wasn't a 'dig' at Mods Ray

The phrase "dunno how the Mods will see that" does imply that moderators judge things however they see fit, where in fact (as stated too many times) we just apply the club's own policy as fairly as humanly possible.

- although you have been known to 'dig' plenty at ME

Personal digs are not allowed but it's allowed to criticise questionable advice ;-)
Not really sure which thread you mean but if you think any remark needs moderating, just PM a moderator to request it.

[bmcecosse]

Ahh well - you may see some of my advice as 'questionable' because it doesn't necessarily follow the 'old ways' - but I can assure you anything I advise is from personal experience, tried and tested. I simply try to offer good sensible advice - and money saving tips where possible!

[rayofleamington]

I simply try to offer good sensible advice - and money saving tips where possible!

no problem with that Roy as hopefully you well know. I was reffering to things like gravity bleeding which just won't work when someone rebuilds a Minor brake system, but someone wasted hours trying it.
Anyway - I'm hoping to hear more on the engine stalling issue, rather than stall the issue by talking about forum rules ;-)

[webbnuts]

Hi there, thanks for all the help. To give you a bit more of an idea, it had been doing this for some time, starting back in the summer. Rather than return it to the "well known supplier", my father in law took it to a local garage, who suspected the carb, a replacement was sourced from the Morris Minor center in Birmingham (who were very helpfull) and fitted by the garage. After this, they also said the coil was suspect, so this was changed as well.

The problem is very much still evident. I had a quick look under the bonnet in the dark a minute ago, and the heat shield between the carb and the manifold is missing. Someone once mentioned that if this is missing, the fuel can evaporate from the carb and cause this problem. does this sound likely? I thought about the fuel pump, although when purchased from the "well known supplier" it was fitted with a new unit, but then, the "well known supplier" also fitted a new coil........

Its really frustrating, i bought a Minor for 800 quid from ebay, and had possibly the most driving fun for least amount of cash ever. Father in law decided to join in on the fun but has no mechanical knowledge at all, so decided to pay all that extra money to get a minter. Turned out to be more unreliable than my "banger" and now he is loosing confidence in driving it, which is a real shame.

I really appreciate all your help, and i'm sorry for causing any controversy! The place in question really has dissapointed though, i thought they were supposed to be the best, but apparantly not.

If there is any other information i can supply, please let me know. In the meantime, i'll see if he can drop it round my place so i can start trying rayofleamingtons suggestions.

Thanks again,

best wishes,

Sam.

[PSL184]

Not wishing to be controversal, but, as you've changed teh carb and the coil and the problem is still there, then they probably not at fault and the the original supplier probably did fit new parts as they stated. The gargage you took it too probably wasn't familiar with old technology and from what you have said they sound like they were guessing at faults! Take the car back to where you bought it and ask them to sort it out. That particular supplier has been around for many years and if they were so bad they wouldn't still be in business now, would they. Good luck with sorting it out but ranting about it on here won't fix it.

[rayofleamington]

thanks for your extra explanation on the history Sam.

With that in mind, I'd agree with PSL that it's unlikely to be the carb or coil as it's had the fault with 2 different ones

Minors are usually very simple - shame you're not in Warwickshire as I'd like a play to see what could be found.

sorry for causing any controversy!

don't worry - it's a long running issue

[DAVIDMCCULLOUGH]

If the heat shield is missing its bound to cause probs, on my sidevalve there was no heat shield and had a serious hot stating problem, it needed to cool sometimes for 15 minutes. They are not generally fiited to sidevalves.

Its possible that when the carb was changed the bakelite block that is the heat shield was stuck to the old carb and not replaced.

[PSL184]

I can't speak for the sidevalves David but there is not a heat shield fitted as standard on a 62 car.....

[Kevin]

Yes there is not a heatshield fitted as standard on the later cars.
However there was a problem a while ago with some rotor arms which caused problems when the car was warmed up (I can't remember which of the 2 types caused the problem) but it was caused by the brass segment fixing, also the condensor can cause problems but this is normally associated with the points burning which I am sure you would have noticed.

[bmcecosse]

It's not anything to do with heatshield! None fitted anyway. The garage who fitted new carb and coil was just shooting in the dark - at your expense. Try the simple cheap ignition parts first - swap them from your car as a zero cost option - but do that one part at a time to avoid confusion. Points/condenser/dizzy cap and leads are all possibilities - and are the spark plugs ok ?

[dalebrignall]

i have had some dodgy rotor arms for the 45d dissy,they seem to be too big i get the minispares own brand ones now.

[rayofleamington]

Try the simple cheap ignition parts first - swap them from your car as a zero cost option

that's a very good option - to avoid any confusion, use parts that you KNOW are good!
The rotor arm failures I've been aware of tended to fail under load not at idle, but I guess if it's only a smallish current leak (rather than a total current loss) then a weak spark may be the issue. The reason for failure under load is the spark resistance is higher when you put your foot down as the higher compression in the cylinder makes it harder for the spark to jump across the plug gap.

condenser is a remote possibility - it could be causing a small current leak when hot.

HT leads - if they are breaking down then maybe one is going high resistance when hot.

Another thing worth trying is have a look under bonnet when it's dark - if you see a lot of blue flashes then you know there's a short on the HT side 'somewhere'

It's not unheard of for it to be a water leak! I heard of one years ago where when the engine got hot a small jet of water came out of the cooling system and shorted the electrics.

[DAVIDMCCULLOUGH]

The bakelite block between the manifold, accletator cable bracket and carb is surely a heatshield, Im not refering to any of the aftermarket things on offer.