Baffled by Brakes

Post by **jonali** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:37 pm

Hi Guys, I am in the middle of a rebuild on a 1970 austin morris pick up and have benefitted a great deal from the reading thru the old and new threads so thanks to all the experts.

I am currently suffering from something of an information overload on the possibilities for the braking system.
I am keeping the vehicle as is regarding engine gearbox etc but after reading various threads on braking I am now in a quandry as to whether the originals are worth repairing/replacing or do i need to do major mods?
The car will be a second vehicle and I would not expect to do much motorway in it, live rurally and am a pretty chilled driver for a man of my age. Any advice will be greatfully recieved.

Thanks in advance

John

Post by **PSL184** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:47 pm

Just make sure the standard braking system is functioning as intended and it will be fine.... All mine are totally standard but in 100% working condition... No probs.

linearaudio · Post by **linearaudio** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:58 pm

Oh-oh, get ready to draw the battle lines again!

Over to you, BMC!

Post by **jonali** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:00 pm

Thanks PSL184 you have a fine spread of vehicles there.

If there is a drawing of battle lines then I would add some caveats. I am reasonably proficient at both fabrication and fitting and also not above spending a day on the local scrapheap(if china hasn't had it all)

Also sadly on a tight budget and time restraints. Looking so far like I need a new m/c and front cylinders both sides rear cylinders ok but will have to completely re pipe.

What would you do?

Post by **PSL184** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:21 pm

Standard brake parts are cheap and easy to get hold of. BMC will tell you to use Wolseley or Riley brakes, which, will, improve stopping power. However, you can't get hold of parts very easily so I think it defeats the object of running a car as a daily driver. Disc brake conversions are available but can be expensive and they don't use standard Minor parts so not cheap in the long run.... You pays your money and takes your choice as they say but I still stand by the fact that standard brakes that are working 100% as intended will do the job perdectly adequately.....

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:40 am

No - for normal use on a standard car the later 8" drum brakes in good working order are fine! No need for any changes. If you have the early 7" drum brakes at the front (948 engine cars) then yes I urge you to upgrade to the later 8" drums. Discs and Wolseley brakes are options where owners intend to drive 'briskly' and are worried that their brakes may fade. In normal everyday sane driving - the standard 8" brakes won't fade.

Post by **MoggyTech** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:10 am

What Mr BMC said. I have disc brakes and it's overkill on a standard 1098. In fact on greasy roads with no magical ABS they can be a royal pain in the rear end, as it's all too easy to lockup the front wheels, and that's with wide 185 tyres on alloys.

Wouldn't be a problem if my modern car (Mk9 Polo) didn't have ABS, which makes you lazy WRT proper braking techniques. 8" drums will be fine if adjusted correctly and frequently.

Post by **jonali** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:48 pm

Thanks guys

Am stripping out the osf at the moment and it isn't as bad as it looked. Might be able to salvage one of the pair of cylinders fingers x'd

John

Post by **alex_holden** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:09 pm

If you're doing a proper rebuild and you can afford it, I would recommend replacing all the brake cylinders and pipes including the master cylinder and the flexihoses.

I recently took a chance on a master cylinder I wasn't totally sure about and wound up having to change it late at night in a back alley during a rally (at least I'd had enough sense to buy a new one and bring it with me just in case!

).

Post by **jonali** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:47 pm

Thanks Alex, Am re piping and the master cylinder is a write off. The rear brake cylinders still had fluid in them and cleaned up nicely and functioned as much as I could tell using compressed air. Have opted to leave them in place til i can pipe up and test.
Was hoping to refurbish maybe 2 of the 4 front cylinders but think its probably best to replace the lot.

Pattern cylinders half the price but I presume that as with all things you get what you pay for?

Post by **alex_holden** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:52 pm

The pattern slave cylinders seem to be OK - I'm using them on my cars. I'd go with 'genuine' for the master cylinder.

Just make sure you open up the new cylinders and check there isn't any swarf inside before you fit them.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 4:22 pm

For peace of mind - I would fit all new cylinders at least at the front - and I don't see anything wrong with the pattern ones. New shoes too !

Post by **jonali** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:26 pm

pattern it is then. save the wallet some. Thanks again to all.

Post by **wibble_puppy** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:08 pm

check your drums, too, for deep scoring and for ovalness (is that a word?)

Post by **Dean** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:09 pm

alex_holden wrote: Just make sure you open up the new cylinders and check there isn't any swarf inside before you fit them.

You are joking!!!! I've just bloody replaced all of my cylinders and pipes almost ready to fill up with fluid. Having had to make my own copper pipes up because the ones I bought originally were short... the thread was none existent on the one cylinder so needed re-tapping... Are you telling me now these units that came assembled and banded up have metal filings in them? Grrrr!!!

Post by **Dean** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:14 pm

wibble_puppy wrote:check your drums, too, for deep scoring and for ovalness (is that a word?)

Ovality or Eccentricity.

Post by **wibble_puppy** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:15 pm

Check they are not ovaltine.

Post by **jonathon** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:16 pm

Alex wrote on the other thread...

Yes, the pedal pressure will be lower. I have Wolseleys with Minor cylinders on my Saloon, and it's easy to lock the wheels by accident when I first get in it after driving the Trav with its standard 8" brakes.
Moggy Tech wrote

What Mr BMC said. I have disc brakes and it's overkill on a standard 1098. In fact on greasy roads with no magical ABS they can be a royal pain in the rear end, as it's all too easy to lockup the front wheels, and that's with wide 185 tyres on alloys.

So, as bad as each other then ehh!!

I'd suggest that if you are running a standard 1098 Minor then you should fit the solid variety of the disc kits, not only will this save you money but also give you more than adequate brakes.
Maybe the reason for the experiences described by Alex and MT are more to do with retaining the poor rear brake system rather than fitting uprated rear brakes, or an axle change ie Escort MK11 or Ital units. This is the best route to achieving 'balanced' braking but will obviously cost more.
Just returned from our trackday at Snetterton where both of our cars out braked and accelerated everything on track except for the Ascari GT2 race car. We will however need to uprade the fronts as our driver used a pair of front pads during the days session of just over 200 miles

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:01 pm

@*&$*& me, it was exciting being in the passenger seat while he did it though...

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:11 pm

Lucky you Andrew - and here I thought you were the Stig!
Yes J - I agree - upgarding the front brakes (either way) does show up the shortcomings of the rears - which can of course be easily solved by fitting ....... wait for it ........ Wolseley rear brakes ! They are 8" diameter, bolt straight on (maybe a wee fiddle with the hand brake cable connection - it was 40 years ago) but they certainly give rear brakes that WORK - handbrake turns are no problem at all!