Supension legs -lack of!

[BMC1]

Greetings to all. I'm new to this board so apologies if I'm repeating a question that has already been asked, but....
There seems to be a real problem with the supply of reconditioned suspension legs for these cars. I phoned Bullmotiv yesterday and they said there was no hope of getting any new stock for the forseeable future, and it's the same story everywhere.
My concern is that it's things like this that can pose a real threat to the survival of the car. If the car needs one, and you can't get one, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the car is...it's off the road and that's that.
Thoughts anyone..?

-Martin

[aupickup]

yes agreed there is a problem with them

they are being made we are led to beleive

i was lucky to get some new old stock mowog ones a while back

[MoggyTech]

The Kingpin debacle has been going on since December 2007. The legs are cast abroad, then shipped into the UK for machining. The last batch (cast in China) failed X-Ray tests, so a new batch has been commissioned from Turkey, and were meant to be shipped this month (August 2008).

The comments you got from BM are a bit worrying, as it would tend to suggest there is a continued problem. I'm not overly concerned, as without Kingpins, the big parts suppliers would go out of business pretty quick.

That said, if push comes to shove, people will need to have the kingpin ends re-metaled, and then new threads cut to fit the trunnion. Perfectly possible with decent MIG welding gear and a suitable thread cutter.

What makes my blood boil, is we have some of the best engineers right here in the UK, yet we rely on countries who are just getting used to having toilet paper to make parts for us.

[BMC1]

Absolutely right! Agree with all that you say!
Thanks also for all that information. I have to say that I'm now worried about the quality of these things being made abroad- especially in places like China (see your local hardware shop for Chinese cheese spanners..).
When it comes down to it, manufactures in places like that don't really give a damn provided they make cash out of it. The thought of a family-filled Morris Minor braking heavily with Chinese made suspension legs (forged by hand over an open fire)...eek!
In many ways, you've told me what I wanted to know and confirmed my suspicions.
As an engineer myself (now, temporarily, working outside the 'industry' because we don't do engineering in the UK any more) I'm going to chat with others in the trade about this. There must be a better way than this!
We used to lead the world in this stuff. What the hell happened??

[Dean]

I've just stripped mine down and found my thread looks a tad too worn... so I'm now in the same boat. I want to get my car on the road, but now can't.

I used to be a toolmaker up until 8 years ago, If I had access to the machinery I could repair these things!

[The-Mog-Warden]

We used to lead the world in this stuff. What the hell happened??

I think it was called Thatcher......

[Dean]

I think it's more than that Mog-warden. Citizens of the UK expect a certain standard of living and that includes not paying a lot for stuff, we are now a throw away society. This therefore tends to price us out of the market where manufacturing is concerned as we can't compete with the basic costs of developing nations.

EDIT: Engineering (according to latest stats) now pays a better salary than IT (on average). But we still can't entice young people into the profession! This therefore creates a skill shortage which either drives companies abroad or drives up costs even more!!!

[MoggyTech]

Mr Sugar is what happened, the consumer was given the chance to buy cheap tat and the price wars started. From there the hunt was on for cheap labour, in some cases slave labour. It is estimated that there are some 800,000 AC adapters that were made in China, that are a fire hazard, in circulation.

All this work going abroad also fueled the oil price rises, as demand increased in developing countries. Our current governments claims that the UK has cut CO2 emissions is false, they simply shipped the pollution abroad and the so called CO2 cuts are just due to the CO2 being produced elsewhere. In fact we have increased our CO2 output, if you consider the pollution the shipping generates.

Smoke and mirrors, and a dwindling skills base are the results.

Looking in Homebase today, a string type floor mop costs £16, while in an electrical store, a cheap DVD player was selling at £14.99

I dread to think where this country will be in ten years time.

[chrisd87]

Supply and demand dictates that some will get made. It's not as if these parts are a one-off or for an obscure car of which only a few exist - there are thousands of Minors on the road, all of which at some point will require new kingpins. In fact I'm quite surprised that a new supplier hasn't stepped in already to fill the gaping hole in the market.

[BMC1]

What I say to everyone is DON'T THROW THE OLD ONES OUT! My own thoughts are that if anything is to be done here it's going to be down the reconditioning line. For that to happen there has to be a good stock of old, worn components to recondition by exchange or whatever.. Sorry- probably talking to the converted hoarders here, but I think it's worth saying.
All that's needed is a method to do this that's effective and safe. Then we can say goodbye to any rubbish imports.
Your life can hang on these things. The original ones are (as far as I can tell) steel forgings. Immensely strong and very repairable with the right kit.
If copies are made with the wrong methods and/or materials, the consequences don't bear thinking about.

[chrisd87]

Very much agreed on keeping 'worn' ones. Maggie had hers replaced for her MOT recently (I was lucky to get hold of one of two sets Bull Motif were able to source), and I've kept the old ones.

IIRC there used to be a tool that was able to re-cut the threads undersize, so that it was then possible to fit over-sized trunnions. Perhaps this method will have to be looked at again if supply problems continue.

[BMC1]

Yes- I remember that this was an option a few years back.

I was a little wary of doing it at the time because it meant reducing the diameter of the kingpin, and I was concerned about the effect on the strength of it. Obviously it must have been ok since many people must have done it and survived.

I think that I would ideally want to rebuild the thread with hard-facing rod, (welded) then re-grind the thread on a lathe. It'd be too hard to 'cut' with an acme die, but it would last a long time in service once it was done.
I know there's a hundred problems contained in this glib paragraph, but it's the way I'd go with it...

[minor_hickup]

Greetings to all. I'm new to this board so apologies if I'm repeating a question that has already been asked, but....
There seems to be a real problem with the supply of reconditioned suspension legs for these cars. I phoned Bullmotiv yesterday and they said there was no hope of getting any new stock for the forseeable future, and it's the same story everywhere.
My concern is that it's things like this that can pose a real threat to the survival of the car. If the car needs one, and you can't get one, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the car is...it's off the road and that's that.
Thoughts anyone..?

-Martin

There's no problem with the supply of recon kingpins, it just can't keep up with the demand caused by lack of new kingpins.

Absolutely right! Agree with all that you say!
Thanks also for all that information. I have to say that I'm now worried about the quality of these things being made abroad- especially in places like China (see your local hardware shop for Chinese cheese spanners..).

You shouldn't be worried, the reason the last batch was rejected was because it wasn't up to standard. Hence the wait.

Good point on keeping kingpins, why throw them out? These seem to get replaced on restorations regardless of condition. Good point about keeping the pins, why throw them out. For marinas you could buy a sleeve for the thread that was loctite on. But I'm sure the reason no one has come up with such a solution is because this isn't such a huge problem, it only affects morris minors that need new kingpins, which is probably a few hundred at most. Besides when was the last time anyone found any willing engineers in this country, they're there somewhere but they're certainly hard to find. I wanted to make up some J-brackets recently and no one would quote me a sensible price or take on the work because they only did 'volume orders'.

[bmcecosse]

" I used to be a toolmaker up until 8 years ago " - once a toolmaker ALWAYS a toolmaker!! I'm sure someone will lend a lathe if you can do the work! Does anyone know what the thread is ? And yes, I know it's LH on left side and RH on right side!
Are the trunnion kits in plentiful supply? I just fitted a new lower left, but I don't have a new right hand one. Are they available ?
As for the Chinese Kingpins that failed X-ray, I very much doubt the originals were X -ray tested!
Noticed perfectly good Chinese made toasters today in Asda - selling for £3.47 !! Mrs Ecosse wouldn't let me buy one - too cheap!

[jonathon]

The swivel pins were not manufactured for the Minor suppliers but rather a large company who has the funding to commission a wide variety of suspension components. I'd doubt very much if the combined production buget of all of the Minor traders plus the 1/4 million of the MMOC reserves would make a dent in the amount required to service a meaningfull order of the swivel pins. The cost is just huge, which is why those who supply these parts have turned to other countries to produce them. Its simply not fair in my opinion to say that all Chinese products are of poor quality, they are simply the quality that we are prepared to pay for.
The likes of Bull Motif used to have the old swivel pins refurbished in the UK, but there are only a few manufacturers that can do this on a meaningfull commercial scale, and herein lies our problem, that the numbers involved are insignificant to international companies or even national companies, and do not represent a worthwhile investment in both time and tooling.
I'm afraid that we are all going to have to get used to increased prices for reasonable parts, or have to put up with substandard products. industry cannot survive as a hobby supplier.
Is the future bleak for the Minor, I'd have to say yes, as the costs of parts and availability of key items will become more and more expensive, moving ownership out of many peoples reach, and ending up as a 'peoples' car that can only be owned and mainteined by a more affluent clientel and enthusiast.

[bmcecosse]

Or - convert to a very different front suspension set-up which doesn't rely on threads to hold it all together. MacPherson strut 'springs' to mind - but keep the torsion bars - just use the strut for mechanical alignment and damping. Or , of course, proper double wishbone suspension! Cue Jonathon !!

[jonathon]

Cheers BM, I don't think that most owners would convert to a coil over system as its production is too great. Admittedly on a grander scale prices could be manipulated but even so I feel that the majority of owners buy a Minor due to it being just that, and not a hybrid. But then , if there is no other choice ???

[bmcecosse]

Well - come up with a nice bolt-on 'affordable' alternative J !
The World will beat a path to your door.
Seriously though - it must be possible to make new king pins from EN24 bar stock and just machine them to size. CNC once programmed would do it in minutes!

[BMC1]

Well put- and the reason I started this thread. It's a problem that needs addressing. I still think that there is still a long way to go before the Morris Minor dies- but only if some of us are prepared to roll up our sleeves and get the problem sorted out. Dammit- we built Spitfires for God's sake!!

[BMC1]

Ok- alternative design.
Sleeve that screws on old kingpin.
Trunnion bored out and bushes fitted.
Cap plate fitted to suspension leg at the top of threaded portion (stops the leg dropping through the bush)
Trunnion modified so part of the kingpin projects down through it enough to fit a retaining nut/plat/thrust bearing/whatever.

Maybe it'd work, but would there be enough meat left in the trunnion to stop it from cracking away...?

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