Biofuel

Post by **Packedup** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:30 pm

rayofleamington wrote:
The lack of publicity on actual/factual news means that people are sent off on any headless chicken bandwagon for media ratings, rather than informed of legislation changes.

It reminds me of all the cars I see being sold as "tax exempt from next year".

The thing is, if everyone knew it was now legal to run veggie oil without paying duty, how much would the war f... Erm, government coffers suffer?

Post by dp » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:55 pm

If it became too popular it would be taxed too.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:15 pm

If it became too popular, the supermarkets would add bigger margins to it... oops too late ;-)

Post by **bmcecosse** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:09 pm

Cheapest veg oil I could find today was 89p/litre in Morrisons. Compared to 116.9 for diesel - that's a good saving. Anyone tried adding say 1 in 5 to Minor petrol engine? Since the one and only refinery up here is supposedly 'shutting down' (although plenty of flares going yesterday!) - I may be forced to try veg oil/petrol mix in my Traveller!

Post by **chickenjohn** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:22 pm

It would be a bit like putting engine oil in your petrol tank- smokey exhaust and poor running!

Post by **bmcecosse** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:22 pm

Indeed - but needs must if our one and only refinery closes! Today's newspaper suggests it is NOT legal to use veg oil in any car (while showing a pic of a lad with a supermarket trolley full - pouring it into his car!) - without first registering - and paying the tax. The 2500 litres ref is by no means clear if that is for road use - or an off road exemption.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:48 pm

The 2500 litres ref is by no means clear if that is for road use - or an off road exemption.

In the fuel duty legislation (2007 document) it was clear. It was also clearly stated that records were not required in this category (which surprised me as it's open for abuse)

I've just read the 2008 ammendment,

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort ... e=document

annoyingly they have re-introduced the records requirements for all users/producers. However if you are under 2500 litres the records required are minimal:
- 4.9.1 Exempt producers’ records
- If you are an exempt producer (as defined in paragraph 4.2.1) you
- only need to record and keep the following information:

- the date of each supply and/or own use
- the amount in standard litres of each supply or own use

[I was doing that anyway, just so I'd know how much money I'd saved by using waste oil - goodness knows how they expect people to know the latest laws if they meddle with them so often]

I'd expect that the 2009 regulations will remove the 2500 litres exemption for anyone using virgin veg oil, (due to the political problems around the world with the impending global food crisis)

So has anyone got a Diesel Minor???

Post by **Innovator** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:07 pm

Theprice of veg oil has actually increased quite a bit recently due to people using in the vehicles.

E85 would require extensive mods to the fuel system. I am not sure of the specifics but I do know major manufacturers spend a lot on changing the fuel system to cope.

Post by **RogerRust** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:35 am

The only rubber I can think of that the fuel passes on the minor the pipe between the pump and carb. This could be replaced with a smart looking colour coordinated silicone one!

I can't think of anything else (the fuel pump diaphragm is covered with a plastic membrane, and there are no rubber seals in the carb that I know of.

I can understand that there might be expensive mods on a modern car with injectors and sensors.

Am I missing the point here? I can't see any reason for not using E85 and if the octane is higher I can't see any need to change the timing.

So that just leaves the mixture and I'd be surprised if that was so very different for 15% ethanol.

Roger.

Post by **minor_hickup** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:34 pm

For 50/50 bio ethanol and petrol the mixture is drastically different. I could not get mine to run well on pure E85, 50% with petrol was ok with adjustments.

I believe the ethanol can damage soft metals as well rubber and has much less lubricity than petrol and so can affect valve seats.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:16 pm

E85 would require extensive mods to the fuel system. I am not sure of the specifics but I do know major manufacturers spend a lot on changing the fuel system to cope.

In modern cars, the combustion process is so well controlled that this kind of difference has major implications. In an A-series running with a carb, the combustion process is pretty archaic in comparison.
E85 will require changes to timing due to the higher octane, and will also run hotter - so valve damage something to be wary of if you run without a lead replacement additive or without hardened seats.

Post by **RogerRust** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:14 am

I have a Morrisons nearby so I will fill up with E85 next time I'm half way down and see how it goes.

What do you recon 2 or 3 degrees extra advance? But I'm not touching the mixture.

As an experiment I might even just try one gallon when I think there is about a gallon of 4 star left gallon left. And I will add some additive to be on the safe side.

I have been running on real leaded 4 star for 12 months in an effort to restore some lead memory to the valve seats after cutting them back. consequently I've probably got a bit more advance than I would have if I was unleaded. However it so expensive now I'm going to swap to unleaded and additive.

Post by **minor_hickup** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:07 pm

It won't run if you don't touch the mixture, unless you pull the choke out. To run 50/50 expect to richen by about 11 or 12 flats on the adjustment nut.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:44 pm

I'd not heard that it needs such a severe mod to the mixture - surely 12 flats would reduce the MPG loads?
All the blurb on E85 is conflicting, but reading up on south American use of ethanol fuels does say MPG is slightly lower (but I never saw anyone say it gives a massive MPG reduction)

The advantage of a minor is that to change the mixture by 'X' number of flats and timing by 'Y' number of clicks on the dizzy can be done with ease.

Post by **minor_hickup** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:49 pm

There was a slight drop in MPG, not huge but noticeable. I didn't expect to need to adjust the mixture so much either. I've heard when ethanol is used in drag racing there's a formula to set up the fuelling to a near mark, such as increase jet size x amount, quite a substantial amount if I remember. I wonder if it's got anything to do with the molecular weight or something.

I think the only reason anyone would want to run a minor on ethanol would be for environmental reasons. The drop in economy I've heard quoted between 7 and 15%. It isn't 7% cheaper where I am!