Biofuel

Post by **picky** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:34 pm

Just come across this on the BBC News Website

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7347142.stm

"All petrol and diesel which is sold at UK pumps now has to include at least 2.5% biofuels.

These renewable fuels, made from crops such as sugar cane or maize, have been added to fuel sold around the country.

This target will rise to 5% by 2010. The move is aimed at making transport fuels more environmentally friendly and will not change how cars work."

How will older cars cope with this do you think? is 5% not significant enough to need any adjustment or changes to the engine?

Post by **minor_hickup** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:36 pm

I doubt it will require much if any adjustment to fuelling and ignition. However with heavy use may have an affect on rubber and soft metal components in the fuelling system as I believe bio-ethanol can eat away at these.

Post by **FrankM83** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:34 pm

In Malta with intorduction of biodiesel gave lots oftrouble on all types of diesel cars, some said that they needed to change the diesel pump but don't know much more

Post by **Rob_Jennings** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:01 pm

I would not worry, I would think the older cars are far less likely to suffer from problems than modern engine managed vehicles.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:30 pm

The EU fuel standards used at our pumps have allowed up to 5% bio for a long time - the 'mandatory 2.5%' is not really worthy of the media attention, but it does give the scaremongers something to talk about.

My recent diesel vehicles have been happy on ~50% 'bio' fuel (with the chips and sludge filtered out). I'd happily run the Minor on E85 (with mixture and timing adjusted) if I could get any within a 75 mile radius of here.

Post by **Matt** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:50 pm

The problems with bio-diesel on modern engines is the injection pump. This is primarily due to the viscosity and lubricating properties of the fuel.

However people are getting confused with biodiesel and bio-fuels (which include veg oil straight from the fryer!). Any derv vehicle should be able to run on properly manufactured bio-diesel, but not on veg oil etc.

I can't see that there is going to be any problems with any vehicles with the mandatory introduction of these relatively low amounts of bio fuel.

Petrol engines shouldn't worry because these new cars with ECU's etc run according to the fuel and you can get more power from ethanol!

I can't see any problems in relation to older vehicles.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:22 pm

Older diesels can run fine on 100% Rape oil -at 88p/litre in Morissons - not that i've tried it of course - but many have. Not legal on the highway . May need 50/50 with diesel in winter to prevent waxing.

Post by **bigginger** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:55 pm

Why's that not legal? The evasion of duty by buying it at the supermarket, or is there something I've missed?

Post by **bmcecosse** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:50 am

Yes - duty should be paid on any fuel used on the highway. Wonder if that includes coal for a road going steam traction engine ?

Post by **alex_holden** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:56 am

There is a way to pay the duty on vegetable oil for automotive use I believe. You have to fill out some forms and send them off with payment to the relevant government department.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:58 am

I would be worried about E85 as that is 85% ethanol, but 5% ethanol in petrol should not cause any problems.

Just keep the car serviced well, keep an eye on the fuel line and carb for leaks etc and above all please DONT thrash your Minor. These are old cars designed for economy and sensible driving.

Harsh driving styles will cause much more damage than 5% ethanol in the petrol.

Post by **Packedup** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:16 pm

bmcecosse wrote:Yes - duty should be paid on any fuel used on the highway.

But no duty is payable on the first x 1000 (I think 2500) litres on veggie diesel.

Which might explain why it's gone from 50p/l to nearly £1 recently, although that's till cheaper than forking out at the pump.

Post by **Matt** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:02 pm

yup, if you keep receipts etc you can stick 2500 litres of veg oil/home made bio derv in your fuel tank each year and its legal

It even says so on the HMRC website

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:03 am

So our beloved Moggies may be able to become vegetarians then.

Post by **salty_monk** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:15 am

They're already using 10% here & have done for some years....

Biggest problem is they're running short of food as all the crops are going in petrol tanks!

Post by dp » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:37 pm

Yup, first 2500 litres as of June or July last year. You have to keep the receipts so they can check you haven't gone over. (I know I know).

I guess the allowance is per person so if you share a car you may be allowed 5000l.

As salty monk points out, there is or will be competition between food and fuel crops. But as a stop-gap while vehicles become more efficient and we figure out where to get our energy in future it's not too bad. Won't run out like petro-diesel too.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:41 pm

Matt - you got a link to that ? So - how much veggie oil can I add to my petrol without the fumes/smoke becoming excessive!

Post by **Matt** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:56 pm

You dont put veg oil in a petrol

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/briefs/excise-duty/brief1108.htm

However it does seem that if you make bio-ethanol (no idea how easy/hard this is) then you can use this tax emempt too

Post by **rayofleamington** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:35 pm

You have to keep the receipts so they can check you haven't gone over

you are not required to keep receipts! The legislation removes the requirement for documentation for anyone 'producing' under 2500 litres. However if you have manufacturing equipment and they suspect you are breaking the law you can be investigated (in which case it would help to have records)

Post by **rayofleamington** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:58 pm

Not legal on the highway

The lack of publicity on actual/factual news means that people are sent off on any headless chicken bandwagon for media ratings, rather than informed of legislation changes.
This one happened during a 6 week period when the UK was not allowed any real news coverage (the period when when Tony Bliar was being replaced by G.Brown).

Most of the car world found out about the change via car forums! As the Minor doesn't have a diesel variant, it was only mentioned here a few times.
Long live the internet

As regards using virgin vegetable oil for fuel - that's pretty unethical (regarding the environment and the effect of food prices on low income coutries), and is the reason that veg oil prices have nearly doubled in the last 2 years. ie The pennies saved help to keep others hungry.
There is usually a reasonable supply of waste oil available locally which only needs to be settled & filtered (before running in a mixed %) in older diesel vehicles.