Fire engines

[leyther8008]

A while back my brother and I noticed that all the fire engines around here have two number plates on the back, since then every fire engine we have seen between us always has two rear numberplates, now question is, is this a fire service requirement? or an obscure traffic regulation, or possibly theres an blindingly obvious reason for it we are missing, maybe if we have any ex fire brigade mwmbers they could shed light on it for us?
Regards
Bern and Daz

[plastic_orange]

When the rear locker door(s) is (are) opened (to access the pump) the door obscures the plate, hence another one fitted.

You really have to jump through hoops to keep them compliant with construction and use regs. This is just a minor example.


Pete

[leyther8008]

Thanks
Really? so a fire engine attending a fire still has to have a visible number plate at all times, who would book them?, I'd like to speak to the man that thought of that one for the construction regs! Nanny state springs to mind again!!

[plastic_orange]

When I was in the Brigade, one of my roles (amongst many) was project leader for speccing the new Fire Appliances. We always had to tender Europe wide for the bidding process (advertised in correct journals, to a specific time scale etc etc), both for chassis and bodywork. Naturally these had to meet the latest euro specs, and if we deviated from the 'norm' we even had to get the finished vehicle tilt tested (we had to witness this).
Older Fire Appliances would do an easy 80mph (Scanias), but when we started to get air suspension, computer controlled gearboxes/ suspension, retarders, etc etc, they were electronically limited to just over 60 - due to the computer throwing a fit when the vehicle was driven any faster (outwith design parameters).
We actually bought portable weighing devices to balance the Fire Engine side to side, and to ensure axle weights were adhered to. Then there were cab ergonomics, and manual handling considerations to be sorted. You will also notice that Fire Appliances don't have ladders fitted externally, as roof access (used to store equipment on roof) is no longer permitted - and to stop kids hanging on the back. Some are also fitted with central locking on the lockers to stop equipment being nicked.
The latest one I believe now has a system aboard that downloads performances and sends the info back to Scania for interpretation.
Is this progress?
Despite the rules, they are still being constructed, and at least I can say that the Brigade I was in had one of the best fleets in the country.
My Brigade also build one offs, and the skill in the workshops has to be admired.

Pete

[leyther8008]

I used to like the ones that had huge cartwheels at the back of the engine with the ladders attached to that.
I honestly think these burocrats need to be in a real fire to appreciate that speed is of the esscence, not how the suspension is performing!!
By the way big respect to all firemen for running towards a fire! you would pass me running in the opposite direction.

[dp]

Older Fire Appliances would do an easy 80mph (Scanias), but when we started to get air suspension, computer controlled gearboxes/ suspension, retarders, etc etc, they were electronically limited to just over 60 - due to the computer throwing a fit when the vehicle was driven any faster (outwith design parameters).

So older fire engines can go quicker than new fire engines?

Does any of the modern computer stuff compensate for the lack of speed or would the older design be more effective at the job?

Does the Euro spec have a minimum speed requirement; speed being of the essence and all?


Ditto on the cartwheels btw

[plastic_orange]

Older Fire Appliances would do an easy 80mph (Scanias), but when we started to get air suspension, computer controlled gearboxes/ suspension, retarders, etc etc, they were electronically limited to just over 60 - due to the computer throwing a fit when the vehicle was driven any faster (outwith design parameters).

So older fire engines can go quicker than new fire engines?

Does any of the modern computer stuff compensate for the lack of speed or would the older design be more effective at the job?

Does the Euro spec have a minimum speed requirement; speed being of the essence and all?


Ditto on the cartwheels btw

New Fire appliances have better suspension, brakes, roadholding (if properly balanced), and the potential to be faster. My Brigade took the decision to restrict top speed, but others may not have. Remember that if something goes wrong, and anything can be found that contributed to the cause (disabled/modified computer, driven at a speed above parameters) then you can imagine the next step.
All Fire Appliances have to meet a standard for acceleration, braking etc but not top speed. You don't really need top speed in the town anyway - just good pick up. Remember they weigh around 14 tons, and try stopping one in the wet (quickly).
Just think of a Fire Appliance as a modern truck built to current specs - chassis is the same, but axle loadings,Tyres, bodywork and engine sizes are bespoke (and tested to prove compliance).


The old Fire Appliances with 'Cartwheels' were called Pump Escapes, and the wheels were part of the ladder. They were either 45 or 50 feet in height and were either wood or steel (later) construction. They required a minimum of 4 personnel to operate, and provided a very effective rescue system. (I was trained on them ).
Current Fire Appliances have a 13.5m (45 foot) ladder (alloy) carried on the roof that again requires 4 people to operate - does the same job.
Brigades employ different configurations of Fire Appliance to suit their local requirements, so you will see variations on the theme as you travel around the country.
My old Brigade is awaiting delivery of a combination appliance - A water tender with a hydraulic boom attached - it can be used for high level access along with providing water and general fire fighting capabilities - It's on 3 axles and around 26 tons.
A far cry from when I joined - petrol Commer and Dennis appliances, some diesel Albions and the start of diesel Dodges - all wood framed with alloy outer skin (not pleasant in a bump).
Things don't stand still, and since it is 3 years since I retired I'll be losing touch of what goes on - until my son joins (accepted and awaiting the call).
There are a few vintage societies which are very active in restoring and keeping records of all vehicles, and you may find them of interest to you (check google).

Pete

[Matt]

search for LP8386 (Jezebel) if you want to see a 9.12 litre fire engine ;)

I have heard stories that a few years ago new scania appliances were built on the wrong chassis and therefore the suspension was a bit suspect and the fire fighters used to get sea sick! bets its an urban legend though

[plastic_orange]

Getting the seasick feeling is part of the job
It's possible the Scania you heard about was specced incorrectly - it does happen. Axle weights are critical, and too light a spec causes problems when they are fully kitted.

Pete

[Kevin]

Remember they weigh around 14 tons, and try stopping one in the wet (quickly).

I didnt realise they weighed anything like that.
Not much good putting Wolseley drums on one of those then

[plastic_orange]

Remember they weigh around 14 tons, and try stopping one in the wet (quickly).

I didnt realise they weighed anything like that.
Not much good putting Wolseley drums on one of those then

The latest ones do (fully laden weight - on 18 ton chassis - Tayside's ones anyway) - carrying more and more kit these days. Old ones (70's/80's)probably 8 - 10 tons laden.

Pete