Rear wing nut arch - [FIXED]

Post by **Bluesman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:28 pm

Guys - the panel is in 2 sections. Looks like it comes from ESM.
It has a "lip" that goes up on the visible outside of the quarter panel and rearwards. Looks like they mean do cut the old arch just at the outer panel bend and where it joins the inner wing (= a 30mm wide section all round the wing), fix a flange (recess?) in the existing outer panel, and weld it in - the new panel over the old, just meeting at the bend. Careful sanding/grinding and then filler + paint on top.

Is this the most rational thing to do?
Can it be done in any other way?

How would you go about this job?

Cheers /Richard

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:42 pm

Try to leave about 5mm of the return on the original 1/4 panel/mounting flange, this will help retain the shape when both cutting and welding.We joggle the top of the 1/4 pan to allow the lip to sit flush with the original.

Be sure to remove the lead loading where you are going to weld.

Always use the wing that you are going to use as the template to position the new flange repair. We bolt the two together and offer up to the car, adjust as required,(the radius on both panels is incorrect ) , then we drill the flange and 1/4 panel and screw together with self tappers. This makes sure that you have a close/flush fit, then seam into position or spot weld if you have one.
A final thin skim will be needed to shape the 1/4 to the wing.
Nearly forgot zinc/galve spray the panels before welding together.

Post by **Bluesman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Hmm - couple of Q:s in return:

"lead loading" - please explain? "Lead" as in "solder", or ....I think there´s only one place where there´s solder here - midway, just where the top wing nut is - two body sections meet, and are trimmed flush with lead..

"Joggle" = make the 1mm recess (with a special tool that I actually have) to make room for the repair panel lip? And why just do it to the quarterpanel - why not all the way round? Or is the "quarter panel" the entire stretch along the wing - all the way to the bumper?

ANd the bit about using the wing+panel...you mean the panel is that much off? It is not good enough to see that the wing fits the panel (hole distance etc) and then just offer the panel up to the car, using e g the quarter panel and top nuts as reference? And how do you usually need to "adjust" things?

/Richard, eager learner

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:57 pm

I did mine differently on the project convertible, cut out the rotten piece, let a new one bent gently to shape then butt welded in. However, Jonothans method sounds just as good and v high quality designed to last. I also kept the return edge from the 1/4 panel where I could to keep the shape- even more likely to lose the shape on a convertible.

In the case of the LHS on my project, the wing mounting flange is also knackered! so its a case of repair both mounting flanges to fit and drill holes/ weld in the nuts where appropriate.

I would not fill where you can't see! (i.e where the wing mounts) as filler can trap moisture.

Keep up the good work Blues man and remember there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:04 pm

Lead loading- its an old (and in some ways superior) way of filling. The minor rear 1/4 panel is actually two sections spot welded together with the seam leaded (body solder), its a way of filling a seam with metal (lead/tin alloy) and if done with care, not actually toxic or bad for the environment.

see www.frost.co.uk for lead loading kit and explanation and for a demo- see the video posted of CKD cars in Holland.

Post by **Bluesman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:06 pm

<<have moore stoopid Q:s:
"return edge" - where the outer panel bends into the actual mounting flange area = where the piping sits normally? So I should save 5 mm - or more - to preserve some stiffness of the arch itself, the remaining rest of the flange (bent edge) providing me with the stiffness?
Nah, filler is going on the outer panel only, just a minimal amount, hopefully, to even out my welding/grinding mistakes..

Edit: Yup, I´ve seen people do lead filling! In the early 1970:s, it was done to (then) old cars and the odd hi-quality car RR , Pullman Mercedes or similar - we had in the shop.

/R

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:17 pm

Richard, correct the lead is only on the join as you mention, and yes joggle the whole way around. I call the rear 1/4 panel the whole panel from the bottom front wing mounting all the way to the back.
The flange is not a good shape, and some of the holes are not correctly spaced. We find the best way is the one I describe above, it also mean
that you will get a nice tight fit of the wing to flange and avoid the flapping beading problem.
Johns correct about not using filler on the flange face,the main reason for not doing this is that it will split when bolting up the wing to flange.
A quick tip for filling, stick a 2" strip of masking tape (double thickness) onto the wing where it meets the flange. This allows you to fill and shape exactly to the radius of the wing and gain a perfect factory look. The filler will stick to the tape but not the wing meaning you can remove the wing then just trim back the filler and finish shaping by offering up a clean wing. (hope that makes sense) it did when I wrote it but now ???

correct on your last post Richard

Post by **Bluesman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:44 pm

Ok - so if I got this one right, I should do as follows?

1. Cut out the rotten bits - from the spot welded joint where the flange/arch meets the inner wing section and up to 5mm before the "return edge" - leaving 5mm of potentially rotten steel, but preserving some stiffness. Clean up all areas to bare steel.

Paradox question: If I leave 5mm of the return edge...how do I do the recess/joggling? This can only be done to a flat metal edge, which the remains of the Q/P is not, if I leave the 5mm.

2. Make the wing meet the spare panel in the correct places.
Does that imply enlarging the wing mounting holes or moving the nuts in the panel?

3. after a reasonable fit is there, offer up the combo to the car. Make it fit, mark up, and drill a few holes thru the lip of the panel into the Q/P, and screw them together temporarily with self-tappers.

4. Weld in upper lip, remove wing, weld lower lip to inner wing. Grind and linish with patience and precision - not to make more wounds in the Q/P than necessary. Test fit.

5. Tape up edge of wing with masking tape. Bolt on. Put filler into fresh weld, molding along wing edge. Remove wing, dress the new filling.

Then, it´s only a matter of painting the Q/P, cutting the new piping to size and mounting the wing?

Where´s the knack? It can´t be that easy? (<<IRONY

)

Thanks, guys. Need to think. This job is due tomorrow - my fire watchwoman/chief assistant is away next week...

Cheers /Richard

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:04 pm

Richard, here goes

1. you must remove all rotten steel even if its within the 5mm flange, yes to the rest.

2.You will need to hand form the joggle, as you correctly say the 5mm return will be in the way of a hand joggler. We use an air fed version which allows room to do this, even so some of tis procedure needs to be formed with the hammer and dolly

3.Yep screw every inch or so

4. Once you have the outer join in place you will need to judge the fit of the flange to inner wing. Once satisfied that the joint is good clamp the flange to the inner wing flange and tack weld together from inside the boot area. then tack the screwed flange. Work slowly ,moving around the job to avoid distortion.

5.Yep, but clean up the weld with a grinder first, use a flap disk as it offers more control than a grinding disc. Wire wheel or shot blast your weld then apply filler to a roughed up surface (36 grit flap wheel)

Pm me your email details and I'll see if I can fire over a few pics in the morning

Post by **Bluesman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:19 pm

You people are GOOD. What would I have done without you all?

Thanks a million for your time and concern!

/Richard

Post by **Bluesman** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:51 pm

Update: Wheel arches fixed. More details later. Phew. Looong day, gotta eat

Somewhat later:
As above. Good progress today, I actually snipped off most of the lips from the repair kit, took the necessary sections only and let the bits in from the inside instead, since I judged the remains of the arches to be sound enough. I managed to save some existing sections that were sound, so that helped with stability issues. Also, two nuts were still there, so that helped with the remaining nut positions. Strange..the nuts are not spaced evenly along the arch on the car, and even more strangely spaced on the repair kit. Ah well...

Absolute hell getting off all the bitumen stuff on the inside of the arches. I ´d like to kill the moron that did that. This is yet another rust protection scheme that didn´t work - it didn´t penetrate down between the spot welded inner wing/QP joint.

Ah well - wire brush, knife, thinner and lots of swearing later and I had solid and CLEAN metal to weld to. Welded from outside and inside. Solid as a tank now.

Ah yes...I made up my own RHS Q/P closing section, nuts and all, by mirroring the LHS wheel arch kit bit...

So - tomorrow (last free day for a while), there´s some final grinding to do to them arches. Then, the LHS rear inner wing section, another (the final, vertical) bit of wheel arch, 2 more patches just over the axle (inside of the bump stop), and then I am almost D O N E with the rear end and can start priming and sealingt it. Phew! There´s light in the tunnel!

No pics today, too tired. Tomorrow, maybe:-) Cheers all!

Final edit: Forgot to mention...when welding in the LHS rear chassis leg yesterday, I needed the jack to press up the leg close to the floor/chassis. I merely pressed up a little, and the whole car went up, it lifted from the timber supports a little - no more floor/chassis stability issues with this one Moggy, promise!
/R