marina rear brake bits and stopping the bump stop riding!

Post by **callyspoy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:14 pm

hi guys, a couple of things that came to light after my mini marathon fitting week the week before last.
1.after fitting the marina axle, i feel i may need new brake cylinders and shoes, does anyone know where to buy these from? are the cylinders the same as the mk1 escort? as on ebay, it says they are, but ebay is not exactly the most trusted and site in the world!
2. after lowering the car(blocks on rear and one spline up front) it does, as i thought it would, ride a bit too close to the bump stops. ie-hits them quite a bit over bumps! now in january i am fitting tele dampers on the front and an anti-roll bar, will this help with the front? and the rear...well i have no idea, so all offerings of advice will be greatly appreciated!
thanks *C*

Post by **jonathon** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:32 pm

The brake cylinders are different Ital/Ford. If you have lowered the car then you need to cut down the bumpstops front and rear by the same amount. I'd suggest fitting telescopic dampers as a system rather than just the fronts.Its also my experience that a decent set of tele dampers negates the need for an anti roll bar, if the car is used primarily on the road. If you do go for the anti roll bar then you must reset your front end geometry.

Post by **callyspoy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:48 pm

okay, so to summarise...i should fit teles at the rear too, if i fit good(spax?) on the front, then i do not need an anti roll bar as i drive only on roads. and also, i have cut down the bumps, but still pretty bump stop hitting! its not horrific, but i can imagine in the long run, it could get annoying and be rather damaging! and thanks for the heads up about the cylinders!

Post by **jonathon** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:57 pm

Correct, but don't use Spax, in my opinion they are a poor second or third best to Koni or Avo. If purchasing a kit most commonly sold by the mass traders then check the closed length to make sure that they will not bottom out due to you lowering the car.
If you have only lowered the 1 spline at the front and 1" at the rear then you should not contact the bumpstops if they are cut down by the corresponding amount. If you do bottom out then I'd suggest that you have worn out torsion bars and leaf springs. Avoid hitting the bumpstops under any situation.

Post by **callyspoy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:03 pm

well not going to slate my car too much as it is 54 years old, but i guess that could be a possibility! but, it did sit REALLY high before! having 13" wheels wont have made any difference to 'bump' possibility would it?!

Post by **jonathon** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:17 pm

Yes, it will as the rolling radius will be less unless you have fitted high profiles to compensate. If buget allows, scrap the 13"'s, put the dampers on hold and get some !5" minilights, they will transform your car and there will be no need top lower it as the wheels fill the arches perfectly.

Post by **IslipMinor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:23 pm

As well as cutting down the bump stops, they should be reshaped as well to restore the progessive part of their design. The shape should be similar to the original, before cutting down, but obviously less overall height!

An angle grinder does the job very well, but is a bit messy!

Ours does touch the bump stops occasionally, but for most roads it's firm, but not harsh. Speed bumps are treated with a degree of respect, even with stiffer torsion bars and Koni dampers on full 'hard' at the front.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:30 pm

Better raise it back up that inch - and let the suspension move as intended! Bump stop riding will very quickly smash the front inner wings - and may buckle the rear chassis in time.

Post by **IslipMinor** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:37 pm

Better raise it back up that inch

Why? Ours has been this height since 1970, when the 13" wheels were fitted!! The 7-leaf rear springs are slight softer than original to give the lowering (no blocks), and never had a problem with any damage at all, front or rear. The stiffer torsion bars and Konis all round were fitted nearly 10 years ago.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:47 pm

Ahhh - stiffer torsion bars and Konis gives the game away!

Post by **callyspoy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:09 pm

okay, so...look into stiffer torsion bars, as said before, better dampers, and also, possibly remove the blocks? i shall investigate further...
also...back to my original post, anyone know where to buy marina rear brake bits from...would be most helpful!

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:23 pm

Can your local auto parts place not get them for you ?

Post by **callyspoy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:26 pm

i haven't checked yet, as i thought that going to someone like a factors, they would probably charge more for the same item!

Post by **IslipMinor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:03 am

Ahhh - stiffer torsion bars and Konis gives the game away!

Not really, as for nearly 30 years is was on standard torsion bars, only very slightly uprated lever arm dampers at the front and standard at the rear! The uprated bars and dampers have 'only' been on for about 10 years.

Does the Series II have 7 or 5-leaf rear springs? If is has the same 7-leaf as the early 1000, then all that is needed to lower and slightly soften the rear is to take the bottom leaf out, turn it upside down and put on the top of the main leaf. No need to remove the spring, can all be done in situ.

Before anyone says it will weaken the spring and break it, please bear in mind that I did this in 1970, and no broken springs so far!!

If you have the 5-leaf, then blocks are the easiest way to go.

At the front, 1 whole spline lowers 1 1/4". Check the line of the lower wishbone with the car settled on level ground. The outer end should be at least 1/2" lower than the inner. Any less than this is too low for normal road use. Another check is between the top of the swivel pin and the cut-off bump stop, here there should be around 1 1/2" clearance, less and you will be using the bump stops too much, particularly with standard dampers.

The other thing you will need to do at the front, is to pack out the lower wishbone from the chassis rail to restore the camber that the unequal wishbone geometry means will be lost, when the suspension is lowered. This does incur some work as the chassis eye bolts have to be removed so that a spacer (correct size washers will work well) can be fitted. Fit the maximum you can, but make absolutely sure that the eye bolt nut on the inside of the rail still has a full thread engaged in the nut, and nothing less. A very useful side effect of doing this is that it increases the castor angle by about 1° at the same time, which improves the steering response, at the expense of very slightly heavier steering (which is not exactly heavy in the first place).

I would try this set-up first, and see if you think it needs an anti-roll bar. Many different opinions on this, it's down to the individual driver and car. If nothing else, having a anti-roll bar increases the 'one wheel' spring stiffness on bump, so reduces the risk of contacting the bump stop slightly on a lowered car. I have anti-roll bars front and rear, which gives really excellent 'turn in'. The rear is from an Ital, so you should have the axle mounting brackets already! I had to make some up for the standard Minor axle casing.

What have you done with the brakes and the engine?

Post by **Packedup** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:48 am

Brake cylinders are the same as Dolomites IIRC. There's 2 types on the Triumph (and presumably so on the Marina), manual adjust and self adjust. Self adjusting ones have a round recess on the non piston end for the adjuster to sit in, manual IIRC have a slot for the end of the brake shoe.

Both types aren't exactly hard to get hold of, I picked up a pair of new self adjust for my Triumph listed on Evilbay as Marina ones for about a tenner inc p&p

Post by **Peetee** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:56 am

Another option is to uprate the oil in the dampers and fit an anti-roll bar up front. I have had this set up on two Minors and was very happy with the feel and balance.
A word of caution though. on one car the heavier oil (20w) proved to be too much for the dampers and the seals on 3 of them failed. As the other car never suffered this I can only assume the dampers were past their best.
It's worth mentioning too that lighter wheel and tyre combination will help the damping as there is less mass for the damper to control. I'm going to fit van rims and 165 tyres but not before I've fitted telescopic dampers.

Post by **Kevin** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:20 pm

after fitting the marina axle, i feel i may need new brake cylinders and shoes, does anyone know where to buy these from

If you look in useful tips there is the link to the Marina Owners Club.

Post by **IslipMinor** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:28 pm

less mass for the damper to control

I have toyed with the idea of something like Minilites many times, but quite like the 'period' look of the wider steel wheels. They are very heavy though, and the high unsprung weight at the rear of the wheels and axle is noticeable occasionally on a poor road surface.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:15 pm

I can certainly recommend the increased negative camber and associated castor angle. If I was doing trackwork (as above ^^^) I would want a-roll bars, but don't think necessary for a road car. And the heavier damper oil has worked well for me over the years - and no leaking seals so far. Maybe the leakers had been leaking anyway - and any oil would have run out.
It is a real nuisance that lowering the car leads to positive camber - I would love to be able to mount the dampers lower (and slightly inboard) so suspension movement caused negative camber on bump!
Obviously - after fitting spacers as Richard describes above - you will need to retrack the front wheels. Make sure there is enough thread left on the track rod ends to grip the track rods securely - if not you can weld nuts on to increase the threaded shank length.

Post by **twincamman** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:21 pm

The rear wheel cylinders are the same as a Mk1 Cortina and the Mk1 Escort. I think the Brake shoes are the same as well. If you PM me in a couple of days, I'll let you know if I've got any. Put it like this, I bought some years ago and never used them. Whether I've still got them is another matter. I'll have a look this weekend.