Hi,
Bobcart failed his MOT, on a cracked N/S leaf spring, To which I let them carry out repairs. I thought parts like suspension were replaced as pairs, they only replaced the broken one (the money they charged I could have got both sides)
Can anyone clarify this?
Also they failed the car on excessive rusty rear inner wheel arches. The last garage let this go because he said it wasn't a structural part of the car..Is this right??
Rear Leaf spring
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Axolotl
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On replacing things in pairs, I'm also surprised that garages (in my limited experience) don't do this, unless explicitly asked to do so.
I don't think engineering niceties come into it. I think it is a cost thing. They assume that most owners will want to save cost above all else, and therefore only replace what is absolutely necessary.
So, if for example you asked them "to get it through the MOT" that's exactly what they'll do, as cheap as possible. If that means replacing only one of a pair, then so be it.
Now, whenever a "paired" item on brakes, steering or suspension comes up for replacement, I expressly ask them to quote for replacing the pair, on the basis that if one half has just failed, the chances are that the other half hasn't got long to go either. You can always ask to keep the "good" item they take off as a spare.
I've also found that labour to replace two items at the same time is often less than twice the labour to replace one, because there is always a labour "overhead" added to whatever actual labour is involved.
I don't think engineering niceties come into it. I think it is a cost thing. They assume that most owners will want to save cost above all else, and therefore only replace what is absolutely necessary.
So, if for example you asked them "to get it through the MOT" that's exactly what they'll do, as cheap as possible. If that means replacing only one of a pair, then so be it.
Now, whenever a "paired" item on brakes, steering or suspension comes up for replacement, I expressly ask them to quote for replacing the pair, on the basis that if one half has just failed, the chances are that the other half hasn't got long to go either. You can always ask to keep the "good" item they take off as a spare.
I've also found that labour to replace two items at the same time is often less than twice the labour to replace one, because there is always a labour "overhead" added to whatever actual labour is involved.
Cheers, Axolotl.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant.
I know that you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I am not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant.
If you asked for two springs - you should have had two springs! If you simply asked them to fix the car up to pass the MOT - then obviously they would only do what was necessary - although they could have asked you if you wanted both springs changing - but then some would have accused them of 'profiteering' !! It's a no win situation - so in future - discuss any work with them and sort out excatly what you want them to do - then there won't be any doubt.
Inner wings are at least in some way structural - and so they were right to fail it. Previous test was presumably a year ago - and maybe the damage then was very slight and the garage was giving you the benefit of the doubt!
Inner wings are at least in some way structural - and so they were right to fail it. Previous test was presumably a year ago - and maybe the damage then was very slight and the garage was giving you the benefit of the doubt!
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rayofleamington
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The rear inner wing forms one side of a structural box section.
This box section extends from the end of the sills to the rear spring shackles. (have a look in the boot under the shelf - or under the rear seat).
It probably should not have passed the previous MOT, but agree that if it's been a year, then it is likely to have got much worse.
A proffessional garage is very unlikely to replace brake pads/shoes/drums/disks unless doing a pair - doing this can create uneven braking in extreme situations and you loose the ability to choose where you go! Cylinders are not as likely to give the same issues as long as the old ones are not sticking.
Other stuff like shocks, springs and bushes can be safety critical if they don't perform the same on both sides, however it's much more common practise to replace them singularly. Many garages would strongly recommend to replace in pairs, but some don't think that far.
Odd springs: If the car behaves badly at speed on a rough road (compared to a 'good minor'), then something is not right.
When it comes to DIY - it seems that anything goes! I've seen non matching wheel sizes, non matching tyres, mixed crossplys and radials, body filler repairs on seat belt mounts, fibreglass sills and many such things.
My entire industrial estate suffered telephone exchange outage for 2 weeks thanks to some 'dodgy car DIY' 2 years ago. A Mondeo owner had bought some second hand alloys that didn't fit so he used brass chain link fence loops as wheel spacers... He lost control due to the wheels working loose and crashed into an exchange box doing something like £100k worth of damage.
Some garages are much better than others, but when it comes to the worst offenders... dodgy DIY'ers are likely to be on the short list.
The effect of one old and one new spring on the rear of a Minor may be negligible if the springs perform the same. The difference between 2 new springs may be bigger!
For peace of mind I'd do a pair, but in the past I have gone for an old leaf spring of the same vintage rather than a pair of new - These days I have more faith in 40 year old parts than new.
I had a new leaf spring fail (it flattened out) on a Land Rover after a few months - the other new spring was fine (it was a pair).
As for the price of the work - that's the way of the world these days. Running a garage is an expensive business which is not helped by the ever increasing cost of living, and everyone has to make a living. To avoid nasty surprises a firm quote (prefferably from more than one garage) is needed before work is done, together with an assurance that any additional work/cost must be agreed before being done.
This box section extends from the end of the sills to the rear spring shackles. (have a look in the boot under the shelf - or under the rear seat).
It probably should not have passed the previous MOT, but agree that if it's been a year, then it is likely to have got much worse.
A proffessional garage is very unlikely to replace brake pads/shoes/drums/disks unless doing a pair - doing this can create uneven braking in extreme situations and you loose the ability to choose where you go! Cylinders are not as likely to give the same issues as long as the old ones are not sticking.
Other stuff like shocks, springs and bushes can be safety critical if they don't perform the same on both sides, however it's much more common practise to replace them singularly. Many garages would strongly recommend to replace in pairs, but some don't think that far.
Odd springs: If the car behaves badly at speed on a rough road (compared to a 'good minor'), then something is not right.
When it comes to DIY - it seems that anything goes! I've seen non matching wheel sizes, non matching tyres, mixed crossplys and radials, body filler repairs on seat belt mounts, fibreglass sills and many such things.
My entire industrial estate suffered telephone exchange outage for 2 weeks thanks to some 'dodgy car DIY' 2 years ago. A Mondeo owner had bought some second hand alloys that didn't fit so he used brass chain link fence loops as wheel spacers... He lost control due to the wheels working loose and crashed into an exchange box doing something like £100k worth of damage.
Some garages are much better than others, but when it comes to the worst offenders... dodgy DIY'ers are likely to be on the short list.
The effect of one old and one new spring on the rear of a Minor may be negligible if the springs perform the same. The difference between 2 new springs may be bigger!
For peace of mind I'd do a pair, but in the past I have gone for an old leaf spring of the same vintage rather than a pair of new - These days I have more faith in 40 year old parts than new.
I had a new leaf spring fail (it flattened out) on a Land Rover after a few months - the other new spring was fine (it was a pair).
As for the price of the work - that's the way of the world these days. Running a garage is an expensive business which is not helped by the ever increasing cost of living, and everyone has to make a living. To avoid nasty surprises a firm quote (prefferably from more than one garage) is needed before work is done, together with an assurance that any additional work/cost must be agreed before being done.
Ray. MMOC#47368. Forum moderator.
Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
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where to break down next?
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Jan 06: The Minor SII Africa adventure: http://www.minor-detour.com
Oct 06: back from Dresden with my Trabant 601 Kombi
Jan 07: back from a month thru North Africa (via Timbuktu) in a S3 Landy
June 07 - back from Zwickau Trabi Treffen
Aug 07 & Aug 08 - back from the Lands End to Orkney in 71 pickup
Sept 2010 - finally gave up breaking down in a SII Landy...
where to break down next?
2013... managed to seize my 1275 just by driving it round the block
Thanks for your replies.
Its more of a safety issue that I was concerned about, with unbalanced springs(1 40yrs old and 1 new), but I do think as the garage are the experts they should have given me advice as to the options, not for me to tell them.
Also there was a leaking brake cylinder to which they replaced at the same time which had contaminated the brake shoes, to which they put one contaminated shoe on each wheel "to balance the braking" if they had gone to all the trouble of taking both wheels apart to change the shoes over, I would have been more than happy to have paid the £10 for new shoes.
But at the end of the day it did get its MOT to which I am grateful.
Its more of a safety issue that I was concerned about, with unbalanced springs(1 40yrs old and 1 new), but I do think as the garage are the experts they should have given me advice as to the options, not for me to tell them.
Also there was a leaking brake cylinder to which they replaced at the same time which had contaminated the brake shoes, to which they put one contaminated shoe on each wheel "to balance the braking" if they had gone to all the trouble of taking both wheels apart to change the shoes over, I would have been more than happy to have paid the £10 for new shoes.
But at the end of the day it did get its MOT to which I am grateful.
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dalebrignall
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crossword
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Seems to me this fine garage does not understand how rear brakes on the minor work anyway . They can only have moved either a leading shoe to replace the leading shoe on the other side or a trailing shoe to replace that on the other side . Either way this also unbalances the rear brakes . If the imbalance is more than (I think) 24% that is itself a MOT fail.