cortina wheels

[callyspoy]

this is for my dad..."do cortina mk1's/2's, and escort mk1's/2's have same pcd as the standard mog?"
both of us asking q's about wheels, i do apologise!

[Nadir]

Nope. Ford=100mm, Mog=4 inch.

[bmcecosse]

4" pcd was pretty much unique to the smaller BMC cars - and Triumphs and Vivas, oh and Hillman Imp. Ford wheels of any kind DO NOT fit.

[jonathon]

Ford PCD is 108mm not 100mm

[wanderinstar]

If you want 13" wheels use A30/35.

[bmcecosse]

Some fat ones on ebay at the moment -

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :IT&ih=002

[leyther8008]

Some of the welding on those dosnt look brilliant!

[Dirky52]

this is for my dad..."do cortina mk1's/2's, and escort mk1's/2's have same pcd as the standard mog?"
both of us asking q's about wheels, i do apologise!

Not wishing to put anyone's nose out of joint but I though I read somewhere that early MM's used metric PCD 100mm. Being metric and being 100mm there is a mass of wheels that will fit this PCD. Just as important was the hub dia which needed to fit without slop. Otherwise the wheel will rest on the studs and could cause problems. When Austin/Morris started making the Morris 1000 an imperial measurement for the PCD was used and this was 4". I am an engineer and to an engineer 4" is not the same as 100mm. 4" is 101.6mm and not 100mm despite the closeness. There are far fewer 4" PCD wheels available as replacements and my guess is there are a few 100mm PCD wheels on 4" PCD hubs.
I would say however that it is vitally important that the wheels fits the studs perfectly and the centre of the wheel snuggly fits the hub boss. I have heard of turning-out the wheel hole on a lathe to ensure good fit but that alone will not relieve the stress on the studs/bolts if off centre by 1.6mm.

I might be wrong about this but it is worth asking a few specialist wheel suppliers before going down this route as the wheels are the last thing between the road and the brakes. There can be a lot of torque produced there and the last thing you want is for a sharp ping followed by a wheel coming off on a corner.

Just why Morris used metric for their early vehicles is a vague memory to me now. But the change to imperial on later models (except engine) is emblazoned on my mind as far as the PCD is concerned. Best to be cautious.

[bmcecosse]

No - early MMs used 4.5" PCD wheels - with bolts to hold them on rather than studs/nuts. As far as I know Morris never used metric pcd wheels on any of their cars.

[Dirky52]

No - early MMs used 4.5" PCD wheels - with bolts to hold them on rather than studs/nuts. As far as I know Morris never used metric pcd wheels on any of their cars.

I don't want to appear distrustful of what you say but I think it is important to everyone thinking of upgrading wheels that we have a consensus of opinion on this matter. The reason I state this is because a very reputable Morris Minor specialist has made the following statement:

The stud pattern on all Morris Minors, post-51, are of the 4-stud/4-inch variety. That is, there are 4 wheel studs which are 4 inches, or 102mm, apart from each other. The early Minors, usually those with side-valve engines and bolts instead of wheel studs, have a stud hole pattern that is of the 4-stud/100mm variety. Unfortunately, for most of us, it is the early model sizing that has become the most common in modern vehicles. This means that you can fit mag wheels designed for modern Japanese vehicles on your pre-51 Minor but not on your Series II/1000 Minor. The early Morris Marina used the same stud pattern as the post-Series MM Minor, as did the Vauxhall Viva.
Mag Wheels
If you want to fit mag wheels to your Minor, and you are lucky enough to have an early Series MM model, then the choice of mag wheel style is huge! Modern, small Japanese cars that use 4 wheel studs seem to have settled on the 100mm sizing that the early Minors also use. The only point to be careful of is that most Japanese cars are front-wheel-drive and generally have a different offset to the wheel than is desirable for a rear-wheel-drive car such as the Minor. The offset is the distance between the surface that bolts to the brake drum/disc and the outer edge of the wheel itself. The offset for front-wheel-drive wheels is generally more towards the inside edge; that is, when bolted on the car, the inner edge of the wheel is further in towards the centre of the car than on rear-wheel-drive wheels.

When choosing a mag wheel for your Minor always try the wheel and tyre on the car before buying. The wheel and/or tyre is likely to foul on the suspension upright/kingpin in the front and on the inner wheel arch at the rear. You should ensure that there is at least 5mm, preferably 10mm, clearance between the wheel/tyre and the nearest non-rotating object when the wheel is properly fitted and sitting on the ground. It is possible to fit spacer plates to the outside of the brake drum but this is not generally advisable as it puts extra load on the wheel bearings and wheel studs.

Steel Wheels
As mentioned above, the Series MM Minor has a wheel stud pattern that is exactly the same as many modern Japanese cars and so the choice of wheels is made that much easier (or harder, depending on your point of view!).

Later model Minors have a bit of a problem. The standard Minor rims are not designed for modern tubeless tyres and therefore you should always
use inner tubes with your Minor rims. The late model Van rims are slightly wider than the sedan rims, but the rule still applies. Always fit inner tubes to radial tyres on standard Minor rims

If you want wider rubber on the ground than the standard rims will allow, but still want steel wheels, then your options are fairly limited without changing the stud pattern. The good old Vauxhall Viva comes to the rescue here. The Viva uses the same stud pattern as the post-Series MM Minors but with wheels that are up to 2 inches wider and an inch smaller in diameter! This means that a set of 185/60x13 tyres can be fitted quite comfortably.

But there's a downside - there always is. The Viva wheel has a smaller centre hole for the axle/hub cover plate. This means the Viva wheels can't be fitted immediately to the Minor. The centre hole needs to be widened by about 8mm in diameter, or 4mm around the circumference. The best and safest way to do this is to have an engineering shop do the job on a lathe. This ensures that the wheel remains balanced around the centre and means that the wheel can still be machine balanced using the centre hole as the locator.

Now, bearing in mind that they quote 102mm for 4" and not the correct 101.6mm gives me some doubt on their accuracy. However, they make the point that earlier MM's had 100mm PCD.

I think this point is worth clarifying for the safety of all road users. So if anyone out thereknows for sure and can prove they are right (have up to the minute measurements from all series Morris Minors) then as far as I am concerned school is still out on this one!

Proof please, not "I've been tweaking MM's since I were a lad." In that I mean engineers data and vernier-guage measurements. Sorry to be so pedantic but I have been involved in military vehicle restoration for many years and I am highly sceptical of message boards and the need for some to be classed as an expert in the field. No offence meant but it really does bring out the answer all queries types just to gain rank!

[Nadir]

Hear hear - from one who managed to get it wrong earlier

[bmcecosse]

Well - lets hear it from an MM owner - but my firm understanding has been that it is 4.5" although I have never had such a car. Hard to imagine that BMC would have a metric dimension on these early cars when nothing else was metric !! In fact - most of the country didn't even know what metric was. And I also understand that many early Japanese cars in fact had 4" pcd wheels - again it's just my understanding I have never had (nor ever will) have a Japanese car. Who is the 'very reputable' specialist ?

[rayofleamington]

Minor Wheels are very well known on the messageboard by some of us. Those who know how to spot a SII wheel, 1000 saloon wheel and 8CWT LCV wheel and aftermatket 5J wheel at first glance would be able to dismiss the 'MM 100mm PCD' without a second thought because it's wrong.

Very old Japanese cars used 4" and 4.5" PCD mainly because a lot of detail had been copied from British cars, but this practise was soon dropped when theyhad their own engineering competence.

Just be glad you've not got 4 x 5" PCD!! Eastern Bloc countries liked to go their own way...

I am highly sceptical of message boards

with some message boards that;s probably a good idea.
I'm highly sceptical of any one 'reputable' who thinks that a 1940's British car had a metric PCD ;-) Best bet is to mail the 'reputable minor Specialist' and tell them they got it wrong.

For a good source of info on Minors try this:
http://potteries.mmoc.org.uk/Identify.htm

[Wheels are not listed on there - maybe Cam will add them at some point... ]

[bmcecosse]

Well 'Dirky 52' - still waiting to hear who the 'very reputable specialist' is!!

[jonathon]

Ditto

[Nadir]

Google shows it as being a quote from Minor Mania - http://www.minormania.com/feature.php?catid=757&id=2132 - so not really (with all due respect) a "'very reputable specialist"

[bmcecosse]

Well spotted Nadir - but you seemed keen enough to support the idea earlier!!!!!! They also say 175 tyres are fine on standard rims - so it's all mince really!

[Nadir]

Not entirely sure what idea you think I supported, or how exactly you conclude that I did, tbh. Never mind. At least it was extraordinarily simple to find the reference.

[MoggyTech]

I can't see how any source that states that 4" PCD is 102mm knows the least darned thing about the subject. As for 175 tyres on standard rims, that's a trip to A&E if your lucky. 4" PCD is 101.6mm and a 0.4mm offset between a thread centre and a wheel hole is another accident waiting to happen.

So don't through away your vernier gauges and micrometers now that we have the Internet, it's all but useless for older information.

[Dirky52]

Well 'Dirky 52' - still waiting to hear who the 'very reputable specialist' is!!

http://www.minormania.com/feature.php?id=2010&catid=699

This section is on wheels and tyres. There are other sections describing the differences between the Mk's on this site.

I would like to point out that in mentioning minormania in this forum I do not suggest their information is correct nor incorrect I merely copied their statement for the purpose of debate and clarification on this matter. I do not necessarily share their view nor those of anyone in this forum. bmcecosse has stated that early MM's had a 4.5" PCD as a matter of fact. Now he states that it was his understanding although he has never had a vehicle with that PCD.

I think it would be useful when discussing these matters that statements regarding non-refutable evidence such as measurement should be backed up with technical data or as bmcecosse has now admitted "that was his understanding." No offence meant bmcecosse we have all passed on info like that unwittingly and in a throw-away line. I usually state that something is so..."in my humble opinion" or "based on first hand experience and my notes on the subject."

I have had correspondence with Jonathon regarding wheels and I am confident that he knows more than he is letting on because of his commercial involvement. But not wishing to seem to be promoting his business in this forum he is careful not to push himself in the forefront of the argument. His technical knowledge of the Morris is immense and worth listening too. I am sure there are others with the knowledge that have discovered the truth empirically that we could learn a lot from but have no backup data or original notes to refer too.

The trouble with second-hand knowledge is that it cannot be trusted as fact. Our memory recall is another area that is highly dubious (at least mine is) and often we can just be plain wrong or living under a misapprehension. In my humble opinion.