Bioethanol E85

Post by **honda90** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:44 am

Morrisons which has just opened in York sells Bioethanol E85 which is 85% ethanol 15% petrol about 5p a litre cheaper than normal petrol. My mechanic thinks the minor should run ok on this fuel. he says the old beetle engines have run on it for years in Brazil, does anyone know if this is the case?

Post by **MoggyTech** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:32 am

More details in link below, but nothing conclusive. However it appears some car manufacturers are designing specific engines for BIO fuels so I would think it might be risky for such an old technology engine such as the A Series.

http://www.britishbioethanol.co.uk/Isol ... elease.pdf

And more info
http://grist.org/news/maindish/2006/12/05/cars/

So I would say no, it will not do your engine much good at all

Post by **alex_holden** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:01 am

It's not at all clear that ethanol is any greener than petrol due to all the fuel used to produce it, and there is some evidence that increased biofuel production may lead to starvation in poorer countries because fertile land is being converted from food production to fuel crops.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:21 am

If you run the farm machinery that is used to cultivate biofuels on biofuels themselves, and the crops are grown in "wheat belt" places like the US, Canada and Russia (and even sugar beet etc in the UK) who have surplusses (this is where most bio fuel comed from) then the arguments against biofuels do not hold up. Its an emerging technology and should be encouraged. This will be vital when oil runs out or is unavailable due to political reasons.

I have asked JLH to develop a biofuels Minor- a much better forward looking mod than performance related mods.

A Minor is a very "green" car anyway, much more so than any modern car.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:25 am

I would just try the bioethanol, if the car doesn't run well, just add an octane boosting additive. Keep an eye on carb and fuel pump seals.

Post by **alex_holden** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:58 am

The argument isn't that clear cut - my advice is to read the available research and make your own mind up. Incidentally E85 bioethanol has an octane of 106. You'll probably want to try experimenting with the ignition timing and mixture to get the best results but I certainly wouldn't add an octane booster. I wouldn't recommend using it with a leaded cylinder head either.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:48 am

An octane of 106???

thats racing fuel, car should go like a rocket on that!

I think the arguments for or against bio fuel will change dramatically as the technology improves and refines. There are scientists who are developing biofuels made from waste (rubbish etc) using bacteria to make the fuel. This is what happens in nature over millions of years- just hurrying it up a bit.

Post by **minor_hickup** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:21 pm

I've been trying to find out whether E85 is ok to use in an a series for a while. Apparently there is less lubricity to E85 and so harder valve seats are needed in modern engines. So whether the seats used for unleaded are ok I'm not sure. I'm very tempted to give it a go (if i can get round to putting the unleaded head on my engine).

Post by **Alec** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:51 pm

Hello CJ,

"An octane of 106??? thats racing fuel, car should go like a rocket on that! "

A very old myth, and no more than a myth, octane doesn't relate to power, as such, only that high performance engines need high octane.

Alec

Post by **MoggyTech** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:13 pm

Given the pitance of a price difference, is this stuff expensive to produce, or is the fuel duty on it, almost as high as the current regular unleaded?

How about a hyrogen fuel cell Minor

Post by **chickenjohn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:35 pm

Alec wrote:snip-A very old myth, and no more than a myth,
Alec

Myth? possibly not.
Well my traveller does go better on high octane petrol such as the super unleadeds, so there must be something in it. and my high performance car goes equally well on normal unleaded as it does on the higher octane stuff.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:50 pm

OK, I've Wikkied it and it does seem that Octane and performance do not necessarily go together. I think I was thinking of the fact that with higher octane fuels you can run a slightly more advanced ignition without pinking and get a bit more power that way.

Post by **MoggyTech** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:16 pm

Octane rating effects flame front speed of the fuel/air charge. Higher octane less prone to pre-ignition or detonation.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:22 pm

How about a hyrogen fuel cell Minor

A coal powered Minor might produce less emmisions overall? (slightly tongue in cheek but the hype about fuel cells is rather scary IMHO ;-) )Production and supply of hydrogen is not green in any way shape or form as current Hydrogen supply used more fossil fuel energy than is produced by the Hydrogen (i.e. it's less green than petrol). All it does is displace the pollution from the tailpipe to a factory and powerstation

If the Hydrogen is produced using renewable energy sources, you are essentially using the hydrogen as a battery as it still needs more energy to be produced than it delivers.

Ethanol based fuels are sometimes just as bad regarding the low efficiency and use of fossil fuel in their production - with very low yields for high energy input.
However in Brazil they are much better at it than most. They use sugar cane (high sugar %) and the waste product is burnt to provide all the energy needed for processing - therefore production runs without any fossil fuel.
There's a lot of research going into bio fuel by trying to use any bio material as a source and to re-process it into liquid fuel - Sadly they're not very close but there are some small scale production units being set up to run studies.

Anyway - back to E85, I'm still hoping to find some locally here as I'd love to run the Minor on it. I would guess that some changes to carb setting and/or timing might help.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:59 pm

If it's the Irish source for E85 - then it's made from MILK - and octane rating is 104. I would use it my Minor - if I could get it - the 'saving' is only because of lower fuel duty to encourage us to go green. If in doubt - start off by using 50/50 blend with petrol. But genuine 104 octane will allow higher comp ratio to be used which equates to better efficiency from the engine - this can be taken as more power or lower specific fuel consumption. Depending how you set the car up - and how it is driven. Best way forward for the future seems to be to crack Methane into Methanol (and Ammonia byproduct) - which can be used directly in fuel cells and is a bit more practical than high pressure storage of hydrogen. Hydrogen is fine if it can be made from water using say wind or solar power - but is hopelessly inefficient if made by burning anything!

Post by **paulhumphries** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:57 am

bmcecosse wrote:If it's the Irish source for E85 - then it's made from MILK - and octane rating is 104.

I've never heard that before.
Brilliant idea and far better then pouring excess, or when it "goes off", down the drain.
I'll have to read a litle more about E85.
Personally, if available, I'd try running my Minor on it.
I'm not sure what the problems might be with some cars but do know when unleaded was introduced (I think in New Zealand) there was trouble with certain types of seals in fuel systems failing so wonder if that is a similar aspect that manufacturers need to ensure won't happen before approving their vehicle for running on E85.

Paul Humphries.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:31 am

Petrol from milk! Thats a great idea, and you could make LPG from the "other" main product of the cows (I don't mean beef).

If I was to use bioethanol in my Minor, I'd probably add some tetraboost to it to protect the valve seats ;-)

Post by **paulhumphries** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:51 am

chickenjohn wrote: If I was to use bioethanol in my Minor, I'd probably add some tetraboost to it to protect the valve seats ;-)

LPG doesen't have any lead so you can get a simple device http://www.cp-components.co.uk/img/prod ... penser.jpg that fits into the vacuum side of the inlet manifold to suck a measured dose of such unleaded addative.

I've bought a new canister type airline oiler off eBay and intend seeing if I can adapt that to do the same job on my Minor (to work on vacuum rather than pressure).

Paul Humphries

Post by **ColinP** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:51 pm

I've googled a bit and found some info:-

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/motors ... 26135.html

Apparently there's a serious comment that pre-1990 cars are unlikely to be suitable for the E85 - there is a risk of "corroding" rubber.

I guess that the real problm here is the pump (SU type) and possibly the carb gaskets (flexible pipe may need changed as well).

Cheers,

Colin

Post by **bmcecosse** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:13 pm

They said that about 'unleaded' fuel when it came out - absolutely no ill effects on my car - and I changed nothing.