Brake pipe renewal.

Post by **tickman** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:25 am

i am sorting all the brakes on the car and am going to replace all the pipes. the car is a 1968 2 door saloon with standard brakes all round. planning to stay that way and i just want them a little better as they have an unknown history!

couple of questions:

would you use a set supplied from either ESM or Bull Motif or would you buy the tubing and a flare tool and make them up?

if you were making them i assume you would use new fittings for the ends is there a list of these, threads and amounts of fittings?

would you replace all the unions as well and if yes is there a list of these?

flexible pipes would you just get new or get the braided ones?

master cylinder has behaved fine so far so would you get a new one anyway?

last but not least all the washers, nuts, bolts and clamps that go around the system keeping it in place would you chance all these and if so is there a list?

ok more than a couple of questions but i do not want the car off the road for longer than necessary and the last thing i want to do is be underneath swearing at myself for not getting that bit that i really need!!

all advice greatly appreciated.

john.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:01 am

First - inspect all the wheel cylinders and consider either new seals or new cylinders all round. Leave the master well alone ! Use only KUNIFER brake pipe - NOT copper. I bought a flare tool and make my own pipes - but I have more than one classic car! All the brake pipe ends are 3/8" UNF thread EXCEPT those on the rear axle which are 3/8" BSF - a slightly coarser thread. Why ? BMC madness ! the various T pieces and connectors will be fine - but yes new pipe ends are a very good idea. You will need 4 x BSF fittings and approx 12 (lost count!) of the UNF fittings. Yes - just use new flexi pipes - the steel braid pipes are an unecessary expense except perhaps for competition use. Nuts/bolts/clips etc - your choice. Check the hand brake cables - may be a good time to fit new ones, and of course - the brake shoes should be replaced if worn or contaminated with oil. And finally - if the drums are badly worn/ridged (clean them up with coarse emery before deciding) may be an idea to get new ones - then you will have a complete new braking system (except the master) - and should still be under £100 !

Post by **tickman** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:18 am

cheers Roy. i am doing new cylinders all round. was going to leave the master alone unless someone said NO CHANGE IT. where did you get your flare tool? plenty on ebay but some are metric and some imperial! it looks like the suppliers only do copper pipes but they do not say the diameter of the pipe! already have new drums for the front to go on and the rear look fine. hand brake cables seem fine. obviously the connections into the unions and the cylinders do not have washers but it seems others do on the esm site, cannot really see where though!

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:25 am

Mine is a Draper kit - does all sizes metric and imperial. Instructions are pants - throw them away and just follow your nose and it works fine. The 'copper' pipes may well be Kunifer (copper work hardens and snaps very easily after a while) - best to confirm before buying - or buy a roll at your local autoparts place. The BSF end fittings are rare - probably need to get them from specialist Minor supplier (or re-use the old ones) - UNF are v common (Mini etc) - autoparts place will have them. Washers (copper) are only on the rear cylinders (and master) where 'banjo' fittings are used. Good luck!

Post by **tickman** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:31 am

cheers.

you have said in the past that yhou bleed your brakes while having a cup of tea which seems like a really good way as far as i can see even though i don't drink the stuff.
could you do me a guide 'method statement' kind of thing as to how i assume you still do them one at a time furthest away from the master just close it off when you run only fluid through? do you do just one cycle of it or do you go around again to make sure all the air is out?

john.

Post by **plastic_orange** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:46 am

John,

I'd just buy all the pipes and connections etc from one supplier, then fit it all in a leisurely afternoon.
I could alternatively get a loan of a flaring tool for you, and give you a hand if you like.
Bleeding the brakes is pretty straightforward - start from furthest away from master cylinder and work round.
It's easier with 2 people, but can be done by one.

Pete

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:04 am

Perfect - an offer of help. You can't beat that! Yes - I find the brakes bleed through by gravity - just keep an eye on the master level and try not to fall asleep in the warm summer sunshine!

Post by **Orkney** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:05 am

I'd just buy all the pipes and connections etc from one supplier

agree 100% - recently tried to do the trav starting with the bits i thought were needed, turned out to be easier (and would have been cheaper) just to get everything new in one go.
The complete pipe kits don't cost a fortune and much cheaper than buying odd pieces individually.
Worth replacing the bleed nipples too, and once all the new pipes go on I paint them with copper grease, means they wont sieze over time and need replacing if they wont undo.

Post by **tickman** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:50 pm

anyone have an opinion on the value of buying Lockheed instead of Pattern parts?

£25 more for the front (the set)
£46 more for the rear (the pair)

so is it worth it? do the lockheed set provide a better fit, usage and all that. it is the brakes and if the money is needed to be spent then it will but if i can save £71 by using pattern parts that are perfectly good then i will spend the money on something else that will need changed!

john

Cheers for the offer Pete, left you and answerphone message!

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:49 pm

My vote is for pattern - that's if the old cylinders can't be saved with new seals.

Post by **aupickup** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:25 am

i have used pattern cylinders and not had a problem yet, these were back ones

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:35 am

Copper pipe is fine to use so long as you use British. Automec supply their own pipe which is an excellent product. Kunifer pipe is more dificult to work but has slightly better properties.
In our experience go for Genuine cylinders as there are several types of pattern ones, and brakes are not an area to cut corners. Just look at the issues folk are having with the cheap pattern clutch kits.

Post by **8009STEVE** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:22 pm

Leave the master well alone

If you plan on keeping the car, then I would change the master while you have got the brakes stripped. It would be a shame to do all the brakes and then find that the master was suspect, have to change the master and then re-bleed all the brakes again. This is my opinion.

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:38 pm

sounds sensible to me too

Post by **Alec** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:56 pm

Hello all,

I have used pure copper brake pipes an all my cars for the last 20 plus years, as Johnathan says Automec is the company for brake line pipe and fittings (Also Silicone brake fluid)
Incidentally I believe Automec also make ready made kits for most cars.
I use the Automec flaring tool (made by Oak?) a very good piece of equipment but not that cheap. However I have used it, for over twenty years. I have even used it to fit new nylon pipe onto my Triumph fuel injection pipe fittings.

Alec

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:05 pm

Well - my car came with some copper brake pipes - I started to unscre one and it just cracked off at the slightest touch - could have happened anytime. The copper work hardens where it has been bent/flared - I suppose if heated and quenched afterwards it would be fine. Kunifer is a wee bit harder to flare - but is the accepted standard for non-corroding brake pipes. I changed ALL my copper pipes !

Post by **MarkyB** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:47 pm

While we are on the subject of brake pipes. Does anyone know of a way to straighten new brake pipes so they look a bit more like factory items when fitted.
I bought a complete set and they are all bent round into a circle at the moment

Maybe 2 blocks of wood with brake pipe sized slots cut in them?

Post by **wibble_puppy** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:09 pm

best way to straighten things is to roll them on a hard surface, using another hard surface on top - no need for a groove - just roll them to and fro and they straighten very quickly.

Works for medieval repro needles anyway (brass)