radius arm kit and other handling questions!
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Well I have proposed the magnet idea several times on a Mini forum - but no one has tried it as far as I know. Bit of a disaster on a Mini if the follower falls into the gubbins - not so bad on the Minor - just pull the sump off. But new followers should be fitted anyway. If I HAD to do this job - i would try sticking the new ones in place with thick grease. It's still going to be a horrible job !! But I suppose easier than pulling out the engine.
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downsey
- Minor Fan
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- Location: San Jose, California
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It seems to me that the a traction control bar is much more effective when triangulation is utilized, i.e. a ladder bar. I think if i was to make a set of tramp bars i would have one pivot point on the frame and then from that point two tubular connections to above and below the axle. I'd also probably use heimrod (spelling?) ends as they would probably do a better job than bushes of preventing the axle from binding during cornering. Furthermore, i dont really like the fact that the JLH tramp bars pivots are simply welded to the floor-it would be better if they connected to the frame rails or ideally to the central crossmember just behind the transmission.
Overall though i dont think that wheel hop is the greatest obstacle in the way of hard acceleration (although it most definetly helps), but rather getting good weight transfer and the car to "squat" ( im currently undergoing a 4age toyota twin cam project and will eventually try to get around 160 horsepower (140 stock) out of it so traction hasnt definetly been on my mind lately
)
Overall though i dont think that wheel hop is the greatest obstacle in the way of hard acceleration (although it most definetly helps), but rather getting good weight transfer and the car to "squat" ( im currently undergoing a 4age toyota twin cam project and will eventually try to get around 160 horsepower (140 stock) out of it so traction hasnt definetly been on my mind lately
)I can assure you the Traveller springs do help! Axle tramp is caused by the spring 'winding up' - much less with 7 leaf springs than 5. The JLH kit is not just about 'anti-tramp' - it is a truncated A frame and so helps with sideways location of the axle (which should really be done with a Panhard rod). It most certainly does NOT act as an 'anti-roll bar' as was suggested earlier in the thread. And I agree - I would want to see the front brackets welded to something a wee bit more susbstantial (maybe just a frame across the car to spread the load a bit) - but rubber (or poly) bushes will be better on a road car. Spherical rod ends are great for competition cars - but very harsh/noisy and wear out quickly on a road car. The rubber bushes also give a probably very necessary element of compliance to allow for slight imperfections in the geometry of the whole suspension system!
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dunketh
- Minor Legend
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Wow!
I'm well impressed with those JLH bars.
Radius arms are a job on my 'to do list' but I was just gonna rob a set from another car and bodge them on.
The idea of having the A-frame shape is inspired. Provided the bars and mounts are rigid enough I should imagine that'll virtually elliminate sideways movement.
What about taking them to their logical conclusion and actually welding in cross bars between the top AND bottom joints? (careful not to foul exhaust and diff of course)
I'm well impressed with those JLH bars.
Radius arms are a job on my 'to do list' but I was just gonna rob a set from another car and bodge them on.
The idea of having the A-frame shape is inspired. Provided the bars and mounts are rigid enough I should imagine that'll virtually elliminate sideways movement.
What about taking them to their logical conclusion and actually welding in cross bars between the top AND bottom joints? (careful not to foul exhaust and diff of course)
What would Macgyver do..?
Furthermore, i dont really like the fact that the JLH tramp bars pivots are simply welded to the floor-it would be better if they connected to the frame rails or ideally to the central crossmember just behind the transmission.
Think I ought to correct this inaccuracy. The radius arms are mounted to a large 3mm thick spreader plate at the front and a dissipating plate is welded on the inside of the car to further displace the loadings.The position of the front location is governed by two things the length of the radius arm and the rotational angles of the axle. Short arms are best for strength and minimal flex so the positioning of them is largley self governing. Our triangulated arms are both tramp and location arms, and do an excellent job. A panhard rod or watts linkage would be the way to go if requireing more substantial location.
We have sold this kit for 14 years now with no ill effects, and it has been applied to one of our 185bhp K series travellers which was a dedicated track car, with absolutley no problem.
Please make sure of your facts before offering criticism of a product, and make sure you understand the principles behind the specific design.
Think I ought to correct this inaccuracy. The radius arms are mounted to a large 3mm thick spreader plate at the front and a dissipating plate is welded on the inside of the car to further displace the loadings.The position of the front location is governed by two things the length of the radius arm and the rotational angles of the axle. Short arms are best for strength and minimal flex so the positioning of them is largley self governing. Our triangulated arms are both tramp and location arms, and do an excellent job. A panhard rod or watts linkage would be the way to go if requireing more substantial location.
We have sold this kit for 14 years now with no ill effects, and it has been applied to one of our 185bhp K series travellers which was a dedicated track car, with absolutley no problem.
Please make sure of your facts before offering criticism of a product, and make sure you understand the principles behind the specific design.
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youngun
- Minor Addict
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- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:30 pm
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Wow, all this talk of axle tramp and uprating suspension and half-shafts is making me worried. Im going to be running a 948 engine with Midget head, 1098 cam, HS4 carb (on water heated manifold) and the big bore stainless system (with the multibranch header). With the extra power (65bhp??) am i going to have to start fiddling with half shafts and fitting radius arms?
What are the "must do's" if uprating your engine?
What are the "must do's" if uprating your engine?
Ultimate rust cure for your moggy....paint it brown, at least that way you dont notice the rust as much!!
The axle will be okay still despite poor brakes. Ideally upgrade the spec, different pads and drums, and keep in good tip top condition. or swap for a Ford item, however this would give better brakes but cause issues with stud pattern so maybe regarded in this instance as OTT.
First mod, as BM states are to make the 'beast' stop either uprated drums, Wolesley/Riley or discs. I'm go for discs personally but you only need the solid variety with the power in hand. Then upgrade the handling, as with the brakes keep it simple but do ask and research the market fully, Ask the suppliers/manufacturers why they recommend the product. Mainly I'd say afford yourself the best you can buy, if you cannot afford it in one go then stage the mods, do not fall into the trap that cheap is best, in most certainly is not in this particular market.
First mod, as BM states are to make the 'beast' stop either uprated drums, Wolesley/Riley or discs. I'm go for discs personally but you only need the solid variety with the power in hand. Then upgrade the handling, as with the brakes keep it simple but do ask and research the market fully, Ask the suppliers/manufacturers why they recommend the product. Mainly I'd say afford yourself the best you can buy, if you cannot afford it in one go then stage the mods, do not fall into the trap that cheap is best, in most certainly is not in this particular market.
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youngun
- Minor Addict
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well 55 brake is still a damn improvement! Do the traveller springs fit straight on?bmcecosse wrote:Err - think 55 bhp at best! the exhaust should not be too 'big bore' with that small capacity engine. Traveller rear springs will be adequate - with good damping - but the MUST DO - is improve the brakes !
Ultimate rust cure for your moggy....paint it brown, at least that way you dont notice the rust as much!!
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downsey
- Minor Fan
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- Location: San Jose, California
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Jonathon, Im not trying to criticize your companies product just simply stating my opinion. No i have no experience with them nor have i ridden in a car with them. I just feel that the design can be improved upon. I could be wrong but the fact that American cars and hot rods have been utilizing ladder bars for years say a lot. Trust me when it comes hooking up out of the hole Americans know how to do things right (though we find ourselves in a predicament at the thought of actually turning! 
). With that said i'm sure the JLH product probably works respectably.
). With that said i'm sure the JLH product probably works respectably.I think you're possibly answering your own doubts here. Ladder bars are great for fore and aft axle location, but not so hot on side to side or leaf springs, I imagine. This is, NB, utterly unqualified commentdownsey wrote: American cars and hot rods have been utilizing ladder bars for years say a lot. Trust me when it comes hooking up out of the hole Americans know how to do things right (though we find ourselves in a predicament at the thought of actually turning!
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downsey
- Minor Fan
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- Location: San Jose, California
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haha wow, please just search leaf spring ladder bars on google. And you'll see thousands of articles. The whole point of a ladder bar isnt to prevent side to axle motion but rather to prevent axle wrap.
But if you think that my comment is unqualified then what do you think about these people?? http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... -M:&tbnh=7
But if you think that my comment is unqualified then what do you think about these people?? http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... -M:&tbnh=7
Downsey, two issues here, one your comment was inaccurate regarding our kit, and its location. and yes if aiming for a pure design, you would probably do it differently. But with all retro fitted parts there is always a compromise factor, thrown up by pre existing designs in the chassis and space to fit a system into the vehicle where the original design had not allowed for the upgrade.
Ladder bars are fine on hot rods which essentially go in straight lines are over powered and hate corners. If fitting serious power into a minor then go for a 4 link and panhard or watts linkage, and rid yourself of the inherent live axle issues, better still fit a bespoke chassis.
Sorry to push the point but I'm not happy with your comments on this JLH product, as it is inaccurate and misleading to others on this forum who might be considering this particular upgrade. If you wish to argue the merits of our kit I'd be happy to discuss them via PM or email, but please do not criticise from a point of ignorance of its design. You were not stating an opinion but forwarding it as fact.
Ladder bars are fine on hot rods which essentially go in straight lines are over powered and hate corners. If fitting serious power into a minor then go for a 4 link and panhard or watts linkage, and rid yourself of the inherent live axle issues, better still fit a bespoke chassis.
Sorry to push the point but I'm not happy with your comments on this JLH product, as it is inaccurate and misleading to others on this forum who might be considering this particular upgrade. If you wish to argue the merits of our kit I'd be happy to discuss them via PM or email, but please do not criticise from a point of ignorance of its design. You were not stating an opinion but forwarding it as fact.
downsey wrote:haha wow, please just search leaf spring ladder bars on google. And you'll see thousands of articles. The whole point of a ladder bar isnt to prevent side to axle motion but rather to prevent axle wrap.
But if you think that my comment is unqualified then what do you think about these people?? http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... -M:&tbnh=7
Hang on - it was MY comments that were unqualified, and one of my points was that "the whole point of a ladder bar isnt to prevent side to axle motion". Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'll shut up now.
Traveller springs will help considerably with axle tramp - but yes they will make the rear end slightly harsher. They will fit straight on - if the car then sits a bit too high, fit lowering blocks and longer U bolts. It's a cheap compromise - especially if needing new rear springs anyway - it's obviously better to go for a full suspension set-up if you can afford.
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IslipMinor
- Minor Legend
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- Location: Oxford, UK
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All the earlier Minors were fitted with the 7-leaf spring, that later became only for the Traveller. 37 years ago we fitted the 13" x 5 1/2" wheels in the picture and lowered the suspension. At the rear I removed the bottom leaf of the 7, turned it upside down and refitted as a new top leaf. In one stroke softened and lowered the rear suspension! Fronts were easy, just reset the torsion bar to lower it by a similar amount.
It stayed like that until I started to restore it 15 years ago (completed 9 years ago). During the restoration I acquired a well modified 1380 and Toyota 5-speed 'box, so then had to decide what else needed uprating to cope with it, but wanted to keep the suspension technology very much in the spirit of what would have been possible at the end of the Minor's life, i.e. mid/late 1970's.
For the suspension starting at the front:
Marina/Ital van torsion bars, polyurethene bushes throughout, spaced out lower arm to give a hint of negative camber at the lowered height plus about 1° more castor, bump stop shortened by 1" and reshaped, anti-roll bar (used the Owen Burton kit, but not the bolt-through bracket) and Koni adjustable dampers set to full 'hard'.
At the rear:
7-leaf springs still modified as above, bump stop shortened by 1" and reshaped, custom made anti-tramp bars using the principle of leaf spring 'virtual centre' geometry (not as complicated as it sounds!), poly bushes everywhere, including the anti-tramp bars, Ital rear anti-roll bar, Koni dampers mounted inclined up to a channel across the chassis (not ideal but did not want to do turretting) set to full 'soft'.
Result? It really does handle, and not just for an almost 50 year old car (1958). It turns into corners very neatly, with very little roll, no sign of axle tramp, is completely stable at high cruising speeds (this was a major concern before getting it back on the road), involved no bodyshell mods, other than a few holes, the ride is firm but not harsh and technology-wise it could all have been done to a production Minor!!
It stayed like that until I started to restore it 15 years ago (completed 9 years ago). During the restoration I acquired a well modified 1380 and Toyota 5-speed 'box, so then had to decide what else needed uprating to cope with it, but wanted to keep the suspension technology very much in the spirit of what would have been possible at the end of the Minor's life, i.e. mid/late 1970's.
For the suspension starting at the front:
Marina/Ital van torsion bars, polyurethene bushes throughout, spaced out lower arm to give a hint of negative camber at the lowered height plus about 1° more castor, bump stop shortened by 1" and reshaped, anti-roll bar (used the Owen Burton kit, but not the bolt-through bracket) and Koni adjustable dampers set to full 'hard'.
At the rear:
7-leaf springs still modified as above, bump stop shortened by 1" and reshaped, custom made anti-tramp bars using the principle of leaf spring 'virtual centre' geometry (not as complicated as it sounds!), poly bushes everywhere, including the anti-tramp bars, Ital rear anti-roll bar, Koni dampers mounted inclined up to a channel across the chassis (not ideal but did not want to do turretting) set to full 'soft'.
Result? It really does handle, and not just for an almost 50 year old car (1958). It turns into corners very neatly, with very little roll, no sign of axle tramp, is completely stable at high cruising speeds (this was a major concern before getting it back on the road), involved no bodyshell mods, other than a few holes, the ride is firm but not harsh and technology-wise it could all have been done to a production Minor!!
Last edited by IslipMinor on Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Richard
