General Brakes & Brake Pipe Ends / Threads Question

[Orkney]

Hi all from the northern isles, fantastic forum !!!

Recently acquired a 1971 traveller, all round very good and original condition with no expense spared over the years (even a recon engine that’s only done 4k miles).
Its actually a car that her indoors has wanted for many years, but she wont be getting much of a look in as have fallen completely for the thing

Only slight problem is that of next to no brakes. The chap I bought it from was adamant that it was to be expected on an older car compared to modern vehicles, but seriously you couldn’t do an emergency stop in it from 30mph. So obviously something quite wrong.
The master cylinder has been replaced a few years ago incidentally and there is good pedal and no leakage of fluid.

Wheels and drums off yesterday revealed some interesting clues. Front shoes (they are 8 inch drums) were very worn and looked as though they had been varnished (is this an indication of overheating?). Cleaned them off with solvent and sand paper but decided may as well order a new set as they are exposed.
Rear shoes look as if they have never done a moments work – as new almost. One of the rear drums had been replaced 2 years ago.

Worked around each corner to free the bleed nipples- at a guess would say they haven’t been touched in many a year (more than 5 probably), very badly corroded. Managed to get 3 out but the drivers rear snapped off in the banjo, so new nipples on the way with the front pads as well as the banjo.
Had to mail order these as imperial threads are not available anywhere locally.

Anyway whilst undoing the bolt through the banjo the brake pipe ends were seized right up. As a result that particular pipe twisted – it never broke and would probably go back without breaking.
Do I need to order these mail order or is the thread on the end of the brake pipes standard – i.e. could I get this from local garage or factors ?

Thought it would be prudent to replace the two pipes from the T on the rear diff out to the servos as this would be the perfect opportunity to remove them and make sure they are properly primed with fluid which I gather from lurking here can be a problem.

My theory is that they have never been primed and none of the brakes can have been properly bled for a lot of years and think the rears have been as good as non functional hence no wear on them but all the wear on the fronts.
Theres good pedal, no brake fluid leakage. The fluid in the reservoir is old and discoloured so when it gets drained and flushed will also make sure the holes in the master cylinder are free of any blockages.

Any pointers much appreciated

Kindest regards
Kevin

[steve4063]

the brakes if standard are rubbish compared with modern cars.

but if serviced properly will work well for the power of the engine.
alot of people upgrade to disc etc but most thread reckon its not work it as it doesn't improve it thast much you just need to have a good strong right leg

pipes are very old thread and if you've ordered pasrts from suppliers like esm or bull motif etc its prob worth just ordering new off them.

fairly cheap about £3/ 4 for the rear pipes each or a complete set is under £20 from bull.

just make sure you bleed them in the right order.
rear passenger, rear driver, front passenger, front driver

they can be a pig to bleed but usually ok

[Judge]

Beat me to it Steve.

[steve4063]

Beat me to it Steve.

lol i'm bored its chucking it down outside so i can't do any work on the car.

even just done the ironing for the missus thats me in the good books

[bmcecosse]

The rear brakes are 3/8" BSF thread for the bleed nipples and the brake pipe ends - the rest of the car is standard 3/8" UNF - so should be fine locally. Rear cylinders are quite strange in that they have two functions - the lower piston is activated by the handbrake and the inner piston by the hydraulics. You need to make sure both pistons are free and moving ok - and of course the handbrake cables must be free moving too. When putting it all back - I suggest you get back to basics and slacken off the handbrake cables at the lever, then adjust up the brakes using the snail adjusters in the drums until rubbing - then back one notch) and then re-adjust the cables until the brakes pull on evenly on both sides and the handbrake movement is as you like it. Front brakes - again check all the slave cylinders are moving ok and fit the new shoes. When all set up and run in the foot brake must lock all 4 wheels at 30 mph - and the handbrake should be able to lock the rear wheels at about 10 mph. These are minimums of course! Ulitimately - take it to the MOT place (is there MOT on Orkney?) and ask them if they will run it on the brake test rollers for you just to see how they are. You don't want to take chances with the brakes. It may be an idea to renew the flexible brake hoses while you are in there - two at the front and one at the rear.

[Judge]

....even just done the ironing for the missus thats me in the good books

Don't you dare tell my wife

[Orkney]

Fortunately there was a problem with my card for payment to ESM so have just asked that they add the new pipes to the order as well.

Whilst i appreciate that in comparison the brakes are rubbish its actually beyond that - be better off throwing an anchor out of the window
The more i think about it teh more i'm convinced that its only the fronts which have been working and not even very well due to the state of the shoes.

The strong right leg might be a problem for the dragon as she's something of a shorty so will have to do something about getting the drivers seat adjustable.

Good idea about the flexi hoses, must admit i did look at them but was just trying to service rather than overhaul at this stage.
Thanks for the info about being able to lock the wheels at 30mph - full pedal takes about 100ft to bring it to a stop at the moment !!! and can only get the fronts to lock on gravel at about 10-15mph - and there was some bias to one side as well.

Once all the new parts are fitted and its bled and adjusted certainly will take it to the garage and check it on the rollers.

Alas yes we have MOT's here - except on the outer isles, they are MOT exempt except if you bring the car to the mainland (as the biggest island is known).
Subsequently a lot of people have an isles car and a mainland car.
Can live with the MOT business - still cant get over the great feeling of no road tax !!!

[bmcecosse]

And nice cheap Classic Car insurance - and really cheap spare parts prices compared to any modern car ! You may well find that the rear brake cylinders are seized up solid -only way to find out is by watching the shoes while helper presses the pedal.

[8009STEVE]

You may well find that the rear brake cylinders are seized up solid -only way to find out is by watching the shoes while helper presses the pedal.

Gently.

[rayofleamington]

To have a good pedal, the brakes must have been properly bled in the first place. It's common to have a great pedal if some cylinders are seized - that's only because the fluid has less places to go.

I drove one with 3 of the 4 front cylinders seized - that was pretty scary! (although the pedal was very firm!)

With the 8" front drums the effect of the rear brakes is very little, therefore if your brakes are suspect, then start looking at the fronts first.

All advice so far is very good - if you are strong willed enough it's even possible to check the cylinders are moving without a helper - you just need a heavy brick on the pedal
With one front drum off, the cylinders should move out with one press of the pedal. Don't press it too much or the cylinders will pop out completely and that makes a mess (and requires careful bleeding afterwards).
If only one cylinder has moved, try pushing it back in by hand - if it goes back in and the other cylinder comes out then all is well. If one cylinder refuses to move, then best idea is to replace both (and the connecting pipes which often get damaged on assembly)

[Orkney]

Have just put the knackered bleed nipples back in temporarily and refitted the banjo with the snapped off nipple still embedded in it to check that cylinder.
They were coming off anyway to make sure they were primed before fitting the new nipples.
So far thats one thats locked solid so they are on the shopping list too. Will go for the pattern parts rather than the originals to save a few quid.
As it seems so badly seized thought a service/repair kit was a false economy over the cost of replacement pattern cylinders.
At least that goes part way to explaining the abysmal braking.
master cylinder seems fine so will wait for the parts to arrive, fit them, flush and bleed and see what the state of play is with the fronts.
As i mentioned before just by the wear and coating of gum on the pads its a fair assumption they were working - just not very well.
Actually adjusted both sides up 3 clicks before removing the drums just to see if they had been poorly adjusted.
Be interesting to give it a spin with the backs sorted and new properly adjusted front shoes.
Think I might test it going up hill first though

[alex_holden]

Note that new shoes don't work at maximum efficiency until they've bedded themselves in to the exact shape of the drums.

[rayofleamington]

yes - very true - new shoes can give poor braking but they can also give a springy pedal - the cylinders will bend the shoes to fit the drum until the lining has worn to give a good fit.

[Orkney]

An update ...
The parts eventually arrived yesterday, new front shoes, new rear cylinders, pipes out from the axle T, bleed nipples, banjo & washers.

Replaced rear cylinders, no problems - until the last minute.
Incidentally on bleeding have never seen so much crud come out of brake pipes in all of my 40 years ! reminded me of bisto granules partially dissolved and very dirty colour.

Something strange occuring with the rear offside - the primed new cylinder was fitted, pipe & nipple, flushed it thoroughly with new brake fluid. After refitting the brake drum and completing bleeding began to adjust up the shoes.
Seems there is not enough adjustment on the snail - it wont lock the drum quite until it clicks over to the minimum setting.
On the near side rear the drum and shoes seem to be quite new, so think have been replaced one sided rather than as should have been as a pair.

Can such a comparatively small amount of wear make such a difference to the snail adjuster?

Anyway that aside only 2 more problems.
Got it all back together and took it for a test drive, IT ACTUALLY STOPS NOW !!! wheel lock at 30mph on tarmac but one heck of a pull to the left.
I'm suspecting the front right cylinders, well one of them to be exact.

Other problem is with the pedal, if you leave it for 5 minutes it goes soft so you can depress it a long way - and it will not come back up on its own.
Perhaps easy to suspect the master cylinder - but the question is why would this be happening after a week idle when all that has changed is new and functional parts?
I'm happy its bled properly, guess the next logical step is new front cylinders and rear shoes?

Any advice greatly appreciated as whats been forthcoming so far has been priceless !
Cheers
kevin

[bmcecosse]

Bleed the rears again - to get the pedal nice and firm. Try swapping drums left/right - and see if this adjustment problem follows the drum.

[Orkney]

Thanks will try that, already swapped the snails - the one one the offside has a muck more worn adjusting pin than other side, not enough to make a difference though.
The drum on the nearside is pretty much as new whilst guess the offside one is original so might make a difference. Maybe just buy a new one.

Other odd thing on that side is that the handbrake cable is new that side and is almost all the way up the thread to get good adjustment.

Always a pain when someones compromised whilst making repairs, always been taught that things like brakes especially should be done in pairs.

[bmcecosse]

Ahh - but did you back off/disconnect the handbrake cable before adjusting up the brake with the snail?

[Orkney]

Yes slacked the handbrake off completely before any adjustment