Loosing my bearings

Post by **alainmoran** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:47 pm

I was replacing one of my track-rod-ends at the weekend, and noticed that my wheel bearings seemed a little loose, so while I had it all apart I decided to pull the hub & repack them.

All went well, until I began persuading the beraings out of the hub ... one sharp (but not too hard) tap, and they popped out ... well ... the cage, bearings and inner race popped out, leaving the outer race sat in the hub!

A few choice words ensued (along the lines of 'Oh dear, that doesnt look right') ... I then cleaned up the bits to find that the races looked lovely and shiny/smooth, no major signs of wear (well no nasty score-marks anyway), so I packed the bearings back up again and tapped them back into the hub.

All seems well, the wheel spins and everything seems fine ... VERY odd indeed.

So, is it 'normal' for your bearings to fall apart when you take them out, or should I replace them ASAP?

Post by **Willie** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:12 pm

It has happened to me several times but,since I only take
the hubs apart when I intend to renew the bearings anyway,
I have never reassembled them. If packing with grease
has removed your play then it will not be long before it reverts
to its original state. The front bearings are NOT adjustable and
if the free play becomes excessive they should be renewed.
Perhaps your hub nuts were not done up tight originally?

Post by **alainmoran** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:37 pm

Actually that's another point which concerned me, I was able to tighten the hub-nut right up until it stopped moving, yet the wheel was still running freely!

Re-packing the bearings seemed to sort out most of the movement, but not as much as I would have liked, but then I wasnt all that suprised, given that the bearings had fallen apart on me already!

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, looks like I'll be fitting new bearings this weekend

Post by **Willie** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:37 pm

Just to confirm......the hub nut is SUPPOSED to done up
TIGHT, the bearings and spacer are supposed to be
machined to very exact tolerances so that you get the
correct conditions with the nut done up tight. I would go
as far as to say that you should do the nut up tight and,
if the split pin hole does not line up then tighten the nut
further until the split pin will go in. Do NOT slacken offf the
nut.

Post by **brixtonmorris** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:48 pm

that happens alot. the problem is how to get the ring out now.
i have been trying to make a tool that will remove them.
it quite tricky. there are 2 slots behind the ring in the hub casting to give some clearance for a tool to get hold of the ring.

Post by **alainmoran** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:52 pm

From my trusty haynes manual, the hub-nuts should be tightened to a torque of 65 ft/lbs (ish - dont have book to hand), or alternativley (generic, applies to all cars) you can often tighten up the hub-nut until the wheel starts to bind, then slacken off one flat at a time until the hub runs freely (ignoring dust noises of course).

I'd be really suprised if the hubs are tightened based on tolerances, because (as you know) stuff wears, and for something so important as wheel bearings, I doubt that the engineers at Morris (given their wonderful choices on the rest of the car) would have created that pothole for us all to fall into.

I was pretty freaked when tightening the hub-nut didnt cause the wheel to bind, but I'm guessing/hoping its because the bearings are screwed already ... I'll let you know what happens after I've had chance to replace them.

problem is how to get the ring out now

If a sturdy screwdriver and a big hammer doesnt do it, then I've you might try heating the hub and then hitting it, failing that you may need to get access to a press.

Luckily I have an extra alternative

A few years back my Father created a portable spark-eroder with a head-unit about the size of a domestic electric drill which runs off a standard 240v Mains circuit. Very handy when you have something stuck so fast it wont budge, but dont want to damage the surrounding material, in this case you just run a slot down through the outer race, and it'll fall apart inwards!

Heh, yeah, he does do house-calls, but its quite expensive!

His customers are usually corporates in the aerospace or nuclear industries .. they like the fact that they dont need to take things apart quite so much for him to do his work, aka much less downtime. (eg a turnaround on an aero engine measured in days rather than weeks)

Al.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:06 pm

alternativley (generic, applies to all cars) you can often tighten up the hub-nut until the wheel starts to bind,

Doesn't apply to the minor front wheel bearings - you are only tightening up on a sleeve.

Post by **alainmoran** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:18 pm

Really... hmm ... interesting, well I guess that explains why I was able to tighten the hub-nut up until it hit its limit.

Post by **Willie** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:36 pm

I say again,the Minor wheel bearings are done up tight.
The only wheel bearings where it is correct to slacken off
when they go tight are the TAPERED type,they are correctly
adjusted in this way. If you fitted a new roller bearing kit to
a Minor and it started to bind when you tightened the nut
then one or other of the parts is not to the correct dimensions.
The answer would be to add suitable shims between the narrow
end of the spacer and the inner ring of the small outer bearing.
So far I have never had to add shims to any of my Minors.

Post by **brixtonmorris** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:14 pm

both inner sleeves are done up tight, on to the spacer and the bose on the stub axle. they are locked into position and do not rotate. the larger outer sleeve rotates with the wheel/hub. the ball bearing being free to move as necessary.

Post by **brixtonmorris** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:19 pm

alan. i dont think you should refit those bearing together again and use them. i think this may be a very dangerous pratice. if you can push them in by hand whats to stop them collapsing under load.

Post by **Scott** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:18 pm

Also, the bearings must be fitted the correct way.
One side of the bearing has the numbers on it & this is the thrust side.
Each bearing thrust side must face the spacer, if not the hub/wheel can come straight off the inner bearing races.

Post by **brixtonmorris** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:32 pm

absolutely scott, better be careful, alainmoran

Post by **alainmoran** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:46 am

NP ... I intend on replacing the bearings ASAP, the car is not being driven at the moment, as it still needs welding to get it through the MOT.

Once that's done I'll whip out the old bearings and pop a new set in, after all its not exactly the most taxing of jobs, and certainly not as much of a pain as tracking down the earthing problems which are bedeviling my dashboard ATM.

Does anyone know offhand what the numbers of the bearings are ... I dont fancy resorting to buying them from a 'morris specialist' when any bearing mfr worth their salt should be able to offer me the same bearings for half the price!

Post by **Cam** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:51 am

I dont fancy resorting to buying them from a 'morris specialist'

I don't know actually, ESM (for example) do front wheel bearing kits for £14.20 each + VAT. I don't think that's a bad price.........

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:40 pm

I dont fancy resorting to buying them from a 'morris specialist' when any bearing mfr worth their salt should be able to offer me the same bearings for half the price!

Well you will end up paying more as most specialists are giving discounts

, see if your suppliers can beat these examples
Radiator top hose £2.50, Radiator bottom hose £3.50
Radiator cap £2.25, Top or Bottom Trunnions £9.95
Front Shock Absorbers £16.95, Borg & Beck clutch £61.95
Where I live no Motor Factor can get near the prices in fact the best price for the shockers is £31.00.

Post by **alainmoran** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:16 pm

I'm NOT talking about Motor Factors at all, I'm talking about engineering suppliers who specialise in selling JUST bearings ... ie: the place that your local morris specialist will be buying the bearings from.

OK, managed to dig out the numbers, the two bearings are 3MJ17 and 34LJ25, my local bearing stockist lists those at £4.15 and £5.60 respectivley, so that's a £5 saving on Cam's price and more than a £10 saving on what leadbetters is offering them at ... and I havent even started shopping around yet!

Post by **Cam** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:37 pm

so that's a £5 saving on Cam's price

Cool! Just goes to show what can be achieved shopping around for those extra few pounds off!

Do you know if there are any quality issues surrounding the bearing suppliers (and manufacturers) or are they all pretty much the same?

Post by **alainmoran** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 2:48 pm

There shouldnt be any quality issues, since those numbers on the side of the bearings describe everything from their size to the kinds of loads they are designed to accept, plus youre going through an engineering supplier rather than an automotive one (in theory, smaller pond - less sharks).

From what I can gather the bearings that this guy offered to me are actually manufactured by Hoffman ... who made the originals in the first place, so you should be getting a direct swap.

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:05 pm

Thats sounds really good can we all use them or are they trade only.