Fitting Riley 1.5 Front Brakes.

[wanderinstar]

Right then, fitting Riley brakes.

As you will all know the front brakes from a Riley 1.5 will fit directly onto Minor upright. The slight problem is that because the Riley shoes are about 3/4" wider than the Minor ones. This means that the actual wheel cylinders are deeper into the backplate (I will try doing a drawing) So the shank on the Riley hose has to be longer, if trying to fit the Minor hose the flats for the spanner will be inside the backplate and as such you cannot get a spanner on.
The Riley hoses have a male end where it fits to the brakepipe instead of a female end, so you have to cut the nut off and get a female nut put on brakepipe. This sounds complicated but believe me it isn't. You could possibly get hoses made up,I am thinking of Aeroquip or similar.
The wheelcylinders are IIRC, larger than the Minor ones. So requires more pedal pressure. At first I thought about fitting a servo, but you get used too it and fitting a servo is extra cost and trouble. At least that is what I thought.
Front and rear bias? Don't know I fitted Wolseley 8" rears as well.
Now to try get that drawing on here.

[wanderinstar]

[alex_holden]

Thanks for that. So basically you used the Riley flexihoses and swapped the sex of the fixed pipe fitting in the wheel arch?

The wheelcylinders are IIRC, larger than the Minor ones. So requires more pedal pressure.

I think it's the other way around, 11/16" compared to 15/16" on the standard brakes, which as you say requires more pressure to get the same braking effort (about 1.6* more I think).

Front and rear bias? Don't know I fitted Wolseley 8" rears as well.

I suspect putting more powerful brakes on the back would increase the imbalance and make the back end more likely to lock before the front.

[chrisd87]

Thanks for your post Wanderinstar.

I'm slightly confused (I am also fitting Riley brakes):

If it were possible to tighten up the Minor hose adequately, would they do the job? I was thinking it might be possible to use a socket, poke the hose through the 1/2" drive hole and grip the top of the socket with a molegrip or similar. Either that or use needle-nosed pliers.

[bmcecosse]

Ah -ha. So - is the Riley hose thread the same as before - ie 3/8" UNF ? I assume the new female fitting on the bundy pipe was just a normal 3/8" unf thread too ? Think it's unlikely to be tight enough that way - but there may be a way with a spanner with a 90 degree bend at the end! Or perhaps just make up an adapter piece!

[chrisd87]

Or might it be possible to remove the wheel cylinder, attach the hose to it, and then re-fit the cylinder to the backplate?

[bmcecosse]

That may well be a possibilty - good thinking Chris!

[chrisd87]

Why thank you! I'll have a look when the brakes are delivered and see if it would be a practical option.

[wanderinstar]

Can't remember if the threads were the same or not. But i know that one type was Girling and the other were Lockheed. Don't think you would get them tight enough with needle nosed pliers.

[IslipMinor]

Are the Minor front cylinders UNF or BSF? I don't have mine any more to check.

[bmcecosse]

UNF.

[Arnie]

Just curious,where will you find all these bits as Rileys must be a bit thin on the ground by now and to find the parts in good condition must be even harder. What about spares/service parts? Is it really worth the time and effort finding these parts when you can buy new/reconditioned disc brake kits off the shelf if you require more efficent brakes. I think I would rather stick with a well maintained standard setup (parts easily available) or discs (parts also easily available).

[alex_holden]

Just curious,where will you find all these bits

eBay and the Wolseley 1500 spares company.

Is it really worth the time and effort finding these parts when you can buy new/reconditioned disc brake kits off the shelf

For me it's worth a bit more effort for the money saved.

[bmcecosse]

But - it is much easier to fit the Wolseley brakes, however just at the moment there seems to be a glut of the Riley ones!

[Arnie]

[

For me it's worth a bit more effort for the money saved.[/quote]

OK you have my interest I like value for money (as opposed to cheap for the sake of cheap) how much is a braking system based on these drums likely to cost and how much of an improvement is it over a well maintained minor setup. What year did they stop making the wolseley/riley 1500s was it before they started fitting the 8" front brakes to the minor or after? I only ask because you could be fitting a braking setup older than the car it's going on though i don't suppose anyone would take that into account if you had an accident (do you?).

[bmcecosse]

I can vouch that the Wolseley brakes are absolutely excellent - huge improvement over the 8" drums - fitted in less than an hour each side - no need to fiddle with the master cylinder or fit a remote fluid reservoir - and no need for a servo!! Can usually pick up a good set for ~ £50/60 (price is going up all the time because of threads like this!) - the Riley brakes are even wider than the Wolseley(both 9" dia) , but have odd cylinders and see above for flexi hose complications. The W brakes bolt straight on and use the Minor flexi.

[chrisd87]

All of the off-the-shelf disc brake conversion kits I've seen cost more than £300, some being nearly £500, and I really don't have that sort of money!

Therefore I'm going with the Riley brakes to get all the extra braking power I need for a fraction of the cost. Most of the parts are available from the supplier Alex mentioned, so that's not a problem. Autojumbles are another potential source.

I think they stopped making the Wolseley 1500 & Riley 1.5 in 1965, which is after they introduced the 8" brakes on the Minor. Anyway just because they're old doesn't automatically make them worse!

[alex_holden]

how much is a braking system based on these drums likely to cost

I've just paid £35+postage for a set of Riley 1.5s, however because they're from a scrapper I expect there's a fair chance I'll have to fit four new cylinders at £21 each and a set of relined shoes at £28.

how much of an improvement is it over a well maintained minor setup.

From what I've heard from people who have them, both the Wolseleys and the Rileys are pretty much unfadeable on a lightly tuned A series Moggy. BMC may dispute this but in theory I think the Wolseleys should be about 12% more powerful than the standard brakes for a given pedal pressure, and the Rileys significantly less because they have smaller cylinders - hence the discussion about it possibly being a good idea to use a servo with them otherwise you're going to have to press the pedal quite hard to lock the wheels. Not having fitted them myself yet I don't know how heavy unservoed Riley 1.5s are - worse than an unservoed Series Land Rover? [shrug]

Another possibility worth looking into is if there are any larger diameter cylinders that can be made to fit the Riley 1.5 backplates to give them the same effort as the Wolseley 1500s.

What year did they stop making the wolseley/riley 1500s was it before they started fitting the 8" front brakes to the minor or after?

They were built from 1957-1965, but I'm not sure of the relevance - they're all the same basic design but the Wolseleys and Rileys are bigger and hence able to handle more power before they overheat.

(price is going up all the time because of threads like this!)

Ahem. You're right, drum brakes are all rubbish, don't buy them (leave them for us instead)

[chrisd87]

I'm going to try mine without a servo first, and if they're intolerably heavy then I'll fit one.

[alex_holden]

My Riley 1.5 front brakes arrived today. Cosmetically they're a bit rusty, the shoes and cylinders will probably need replacing, and they have that interesting "stored in a barn" smell about them, but the bits are all there and the drums aren't worn at all.

As expected, the drums and shoes are significantly bigger than the 8" Moggy ones, but the cylinders are smaller: