Paint help please!

Post by **aussiemike** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:32 pm

Hi all, I am getting scarily close to having my engine bay ready for paint prep with only half a dozen hours of welding etc left. So what I would like to know is firstly, does anyone know how to heat the metal up enough for the paint to stick??? My workshop is open onone side ot the elements and really cold!!!! secondly what kind of paint would you reccomend for me to use?
cellulose or enamel??? dont want to use 2pac as i have no baking equiptment.
cheers for any advice, michael.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:40 pm

I would paint the car in the summer. Are you in the UK?

Post by **plastic_orange** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:48 pm

You don't really need a heated booth for 2k (you get different activators to suit temperatures) - it does go on a bit better in non freezing temperatures.
I sprayed a Mini in my mate's garage 2 years ago - temp was below freezing outside, and was pretty cold in too (despite heaters). I couldn't really get paint to flow properly, but paint job was acceptable, and when cut back was pretty good. I'd be more worried about wind/dust etc - however you shouldn't get any flies.
I would however be quite confident spraying an engine bay in colder conditions with 2k.
If I was close by I would come and do it for you.

Pete

Post by **nebogipfel** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:59 pm

Michael, I'm with chickenjohn on this one. Far better to wait for a nice warmish dry spring day before you do your painting.

If you really must do it now wait for a nice dry day (not damp at all) and use cellulose, its far more forgiving for inexperienced painters.

If there is any damp around it will bloom (like huff on a mirror)

On a nice day it will flash of quickly so you'll be able to throw it on with abandon and up with a nice glossy finish

Post by **plastic_orange** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Strangely enough, 2k seems to go on even better in slightly damp air.
Contrary to popular belief, it is as easy as celly to use - if you follow the directions for use and wear suitable protection - coveralls, eye protection, gloves and respirator.
I also doubt you will get celly easily now, and 2k will be difficult as from next year - so hurry up.

Pete

Post by **chickenjohn** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Yes, use celly rather than 2K. I've also found celly easier to spray as a relative painting novice. 2K not so easy.

Post by **aussiemike** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:33 pm

I have painted 3 cars before but that was back in oz in a nice dry and warm workshop. Here in scotland it is cold and wet! and when it isnt it is dusty where I work!!!
So it seems that there is a split between 2k and cellulose. Anyone know where i can get 4 or 5 litrs of 2k from with all the stuff needed to mix with it???? oh and a price?
cheers, please anu more advice would be great!
Dont really want to wait until it gets warm here coz that will be June!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by **nebogipfel** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:00 pm

plastic_orange wrote: Contrary to popular belief, it is as easy as celly to use

No, sorry it isn't.

I have been painting for pushing 35 years and would go back to celly in a flash if it was possible to get the modern colours. The only aspect which is easier is achieving metallic finishes using clear over base but the application of is nowhere near as easy as cellulose.

Whatever activator you use 2K dries very slowly in cold conditions even if you use an accelerant in the activator as I often do (despite a heated workshop) in winter.

If you get runs, and you will if you aren't used to 2K they are much more difficult to get rid of. You will get dust and debris if you aren't working in clean (wind free) conditions. Lastly if you have neighbours they will not thank you when the toxic fumes drift over into their garden and the sticky overspray adheres to everything. 2K is difficult, expensive, and not for novice painters.

The only problem with celly is damp causing bloom. This can be lessened by the appropriate solvent and largely eliminated providing you pick a day with low humidity. If you get a problem/run it can be flatted gently in half an hour or so and overpainted.

Rig a tarp over your open workshop side, beg or borrow some heating devices, spray your celly on and smile

Post by **moggyminor16** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:00 pm

what colour are you after as i could help out if its black in celly

Post by **Alec** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:23 am

Hello all,

there was an article in a recent Federation of Historic Vehicle Clubs regarding cellulose paint. It is to be banned but there will, when the necessary ammendment is made to allow a certain amount of it to be sold to cater for the older vehicle movement, similar in effect, I would guess, to leaded petrol.
The writer of the article predicted that there would be a short period when it will be unobtainable until the exception is made but that the long term supply of cellulose is assured.
So don't let your paint supplier tell you that 'you can't get cellulose any more'

Apart from the necessity to use an air fed mask when spraying two pack, as it is so toxic, I understand that you cannot do spot repairs and blend it in as you can with cellulose?

Alec

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:36 am

Alec, your paint supplier needs to register for selling cellulose, if the majority of his customers, which will almost certainly be trade, they will not bother to do so. One of my suppliers doesnot supply celly already, the other can.
There is some nonsense talked of 2K paint and the idea that you cannot do blow in's is one of them. Ideally to effect a proper job no professional bodyshop will do this anyway.
I'd go along with using celly when doing home spray jobs, but don't be fooled into thinking its a safe method in terms of toxic chemicals. Wear the correct mask. I'd try and errect a cover to spray under and use a couple of ceramic or infa red lights to heat the car's steel,also warm the paint, before applying. Once sprayed move the heat lamps further away so as not to pickle the paint.

Post by **Alec** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:05 am

Hello Johnathon,

yes, I agree, but there will be ways for the amateur to obtain it.

I did not mean to infer that cellulose is 'safe', it is just that all the information I have read about two pack is that it is essential, for health reasons, to have an air fed mask. I'm sure most amateurs would wear a suitable respirator for cellolose but may balk at the cost of an air fed mask.

Alec

Post by **plastic_orange** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 9:35 am

There was a huge thread on the NSRA site about this issue, with so many different notions that it was probably better not to read. I'd say - just use what you are comfortable with - and can obtain - but be quick.

Pete

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:06 am

Alec wrote:-snip I'm sure most amateurs would wear a suitable respirator for cellolose but may balk at the cost of an air fed mask.

Alec

you also need much more CFM and a bigger tank to run both a spray gun and the air fed mask. I don't think that a 3HP serious DIY type compressor is up to running both air fed visor and gun.

You'd also need to site the 2nd compressor -that you had to buy just for the air visor- away from the spraying area for obvious reasons! I've used 2K at college (in a big spray booth wearing an air mask) and its harder for the relative novice (such as myself) to get the wet edge just right without getting runs than when using celly. They also have a Humongous compressor at college that can run a work shop worth of air tools- but you need funny electricity to run such a machine (2 or 3 phase, I think)

I agree with Jonothan- celly better for home use and 2K for professional use- as the professionals are used to using it and have all the gear.

I'm not a paint expert, but as a relative novice whos tried these things, I thought you might like to hear of my experiences.

Having said that, I'm going to get some 2K to spray the front wings and front panel/light flaps on my 944. The 944 was originally sprayed in acrylic- so 2k is the right stuff for it. (I'll do this at college)! But its celly all the way for my Morrises.

Post by **aussiemike** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 pm

Right thanks everyone for their respectie inputs to my request for advice. I think that as the other cars I have sprayed it has been done with celly (it is called something different in oz so this is why I get confused) so I will aim to do the job with that. And maybe one day ina galaxy far far away my traveller will look as good as chickenjohns!!!!!!!!!!! I must say I am a wee bit tempted to rip the wood off of it and convert it into a pickup!
cheers and as always, thanks, michael.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:31 am

I wish my Traveller looked as good as that! Its his best side and he had just had a thorough t-cut and wax (Carnauba wax) before the MOT. Its amazing how good jpeg compression can make a car look! ;-)

Post by **aussiemike** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:45 pm

No really mate I do wish mine looked as good as yours!!!! mine at the moment is about 12 different shades of grey with the odd bit of rusta a wee bit of soggy timber!!! eeeeeeeek. Really thinking about a ute conversion as the whole wood issue just freaks me out more and more!

Post by **plastic_orange** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:32 pm

Mike,

I've pm'd you with prices for celly and 2k

Pete

Post by **aussiemike** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:55 pm

yep got them thanks. I have had a top offer from someone on here for paint but will still need thinners etc. I tink I will be in touch in the new year as new ecu seems to be sucking more an dmore money out of the bank balance !!!!
cheers aagain, michael.

Post by **moggyminor16** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:24 pm

mike i know that the motor factors near me do anti bloom thinners for about 10 but im sohore these paint i can let you have will not need any thinning down as it should be pre mixed but will find out as pinting mine soon i recon