Starting (or not!) on cold mornings!

[Furrtiv]

Right, I'm not the most technical/mechanically-minded person on the planet, so please bear with me and keep answers down to simple laymen's terms?
I have a 1966 Traveller, love the car to bits, mostly he is sound as a bell, but winter does bring its share of problems. The one thing that causes most of these problems is the lack of enthusiasm to start up on a cold winter morning.

The car still runs on his dynamo, and I've been told by a qualified mechanic who specialises in Minors that this is the problem, as it doesn't allow the energy to be stored in the battery when you've got lights/heater/wipers running with the engine on. An alternator was suggested. The battery is brand new, and otherwise the car is mechanically sound.

Does this sound right to you folks? My mechanic's always been honest with me and I've no reason to not believe him, but I'm worried that it will cost a lot of money (a lot of money for me is a couple of hundred quid!) which I just can't afford, but on the other hand it's a real pain to have to charge the battery overnight once every few days (inconvenience with getting everything ready for work in the mornings) so it could save me hassle if I get it done.

Anyone got any ideas as to how much is a reasonable cost to fit an alternator? And how much time it would take? (I know what my guy charges per hour, so should be able to work out beforehand how much I will have to pay him.)

This isn't something I could possibly do myself as I know nothing of mechanics, and I don't know anyone who'd be willing to do what may be a big job outside the garage, like friends or work colleagues. I know a work colleague who's good with cars, but I think it would be too much to ask him to do it for a coulpe of beers as I don't know how big or complex a job it is.

[alex_holden]

If you find that topping the battery up with a mains charger allows the car to start when it's having trouble, then an alternator might help. A full conversion kit is sixty quid + VAT from ESM (if you can source suitable secondhand parts from scrapyards/eBay it's possible to do it for less), and fitting it is not a big or difficult job at all. If you have all the tools and parts on hand and know what to do, it should take less than an hour. One small complication is that if you're still on positive earth you'll probably have to change to negative earth first as positive earth alternators are very rare, but that's a very easy job too and doesn't require any parts at all.

Having said that, I did once have a faulty starter motor that would only work when the battery was really full.

[eastona]

Mine is a standard M1000 with no real electrical additions, it starts on the button, every morning whatever the weather, (I'm storing up a world of pain by saying that! ), the existing system is adequate if in good condition and there are no extra loads.

if the battery is good and topped up, the starter is good and earths etc. OK, then it should start.

I'd suspect either a dynamo, battery or earth issue. Either there's not enough going back into the battery, or it's not storing it adequately or it's not getting to where it's needed. IMHO.

Do you do lots of short trips?

I wouldn't jump to an alternator conversion before ensuring the existing system is working correctly.

Unless you've just installed a pimped up sound system, 100W spotlights and heated front and rear screens!

Andrew

[Willie]

I too have never had any problems starting in any sort of weather but I do
not drive often in Winter traffic jams. As Alex says the conversion to an
Alternator is straightforward and quite inexpensive. It is worth considering
the fact that it seems the EU is thinking of making it compulsory to use headlights AT ALL TIMES when driving!

[alex_holden]

Are they really talking about headlights, or daytime running lights as used in Scandinavia? The two aren't the same - DRLs typically use the same bulb as the headlight but at a much lower current. I think the idea is that if your car isn't fitted with DRLs (ie. pretty much any car except a Volvo) then you would need to use sidelights during the day, not headlights.

If you google for DRL, there's masses of information on the net about the pros and cons of mandatory DRLs, including studies from countries that have already passed a law like this. Personally I would be for it, as long as they don't implement it in such a way that people who don't have DRLs fitted have to use their headlights instead (which are too bright and dazzle other drivers).

[Willie]

Well, i hope you are correct Alex but the article which I read said headlights!
It would be too much to hope that the EU(spit) were sensible enough to say that cars with dynamos were allowed to use sidelights.

[bmcecosse]

In France they are 'encouraged' to use headlights all the time during the winter months - between the clock changes. This seems a fair compomise to me. In Canada they run with headlights on all the time the hand brake is off ie pull on handbrake and lights go off. It's jsut crazy to see all the cars in Vancouver on a hot summer's day with all their lights on !! However it does make sense out on the open roads where the traffic is very thin.
To get back to this problem - you may well have faulty dynamo that's 'only just' making a charge. And so - running with everything on may be dropping the battery. Check the fan belt is tight enough and perhaps lift the idle speed slightly - then geat a volt meter (Maplin ~ £5) and check the DC volts on the battery with the engine running at a fast idle - should be almost 14 volts. then switch on the headlights - check again and so on to see if it manages to stay above 13 volts with 'everything' switched on. BMC did size it handle to all the standard equipment of the day - but if sitting in traffic with engine idling it does make sense to put the headlights off, and not sit with foot on the brake (brake lights) - and to just flip the wipers from time to time rather than have them dragging away constantly. On the open road the dynamo should cope ok. Alternator conversion is easy to do - last two I bought were £1 each. Biggest challenge is changing over the wiring - the actual swap of dynamo to alternator is simple.
Where abouts are you (add to your personal details) - there may be someone just round the corner willing to come and help you!

[Furrtiv]

Hi, thanks for the replies guys. Like I said, I'm definitely not technically minded so wouldn't know the first thing about swapping to an alternator, or about how to change the engibe's idling speed, etc. I live in Oadby, Leicestershire (will check profile later to add stuff), and would be very grateful for any help. As I would like to learn to tinker anyway, this might be a good place to start, but the car is my daily - and only - runner, so big jobs will still have to be left to the garage's mechanic, I'm afraid.

I do about thirty miles a day during weekdays - a round trip to work in Hinckley, down the M69 and A5, so Ector does get a jolly good workout, and then there are the usual small errands and outings that happen over the weekend.

The batery has been changed twice recently - the first time, the very old battery came out and was replaced by a brand new one, and we still had the problems - having a car completely die in heavy rush hour trafic was quite frightening, especially in the middle lane of a busy 40mph road! It was thought that the new battery might possibly be a dud, so this was changed again, and although beter, the problems were still there to some extent. A new starter motor has also been fitted in the last six months, and though this seems to be helping, I still get the old stutering, refusing to start in very cold/damp weather, and having to charge the battery at weekends is becoming a regular thing.

My mechanic does seem to think that it could be that the dynamo isn't giving back enough charge into the batery, especially with all the accoutrements on, ie lights, wipers, etc. (There's no sound system in the car and no really modern electrical equipment, just mostly what the car would have originally been fitted with.) The only upgrade was the installation, well before I bought the vehicle, of an electric box that gave me the option of intermitent wipers, rather than having them on full blast all the time, although this is not working anymore so I have only one regular wiper speed.

[alex_holden]

It does sound like there is a fault in the charging system from the symptoms you describe - dynamos can have trouble keeping up with some usage patterns, but they aren't that bad unless the new battery was a complete lemon. I would check the dynamo brushes, voltage regulator contacts, electrical connections, battery terminals, etc.

If your mechanic hasn't bothered to try these things, I would suggest taking it to an auto-electrician (preferably one with some experience of old cars) and telling him you don't think it's charging properly.

[Furrtiv]

Hm, I trust my mechanic, but I've never asked him to fully investigate the problem, so perhaps he's not looked for where it starts. At the moment I'm quite skint and can't afford to take the car in for a proper diagnosis, as he'll have to charge me for labour at least, so I might just have to continue charging up via the battery charger over the winter months.

[alex_holden]

OK, being skint is a good enough reason to learn how to do it yourself

What do you have in the way of tools? Can you sweet-talk your workmate to come and go through it with you?

[Furrtiv]

Probably could sweet-talk him into coming over to help if beers and pizza/cake were involved!:) As for tools, I'd have to look, but I'm pretty sure I've got a small but serviceable adjustable wrench, a socket set, pliers of varuious kinds and some cutters (or rather, the other half has!). And a Haynes manual, although I din't understand much of that as it seems to assume that any reader already has some basic mechanical knowledge.
My father wouldn't teach me anything when I was younger because "girls don't do this sort of thing".

[alex_holden]

As BMCEcosse says, you could do with a cheap multimeter to check the battery voltage under various circumstances. You'll also need some screwdrivers of various sizes, and it would be preferable to get some decent combination spanners and avoid the adjustable spanner if possible. You probably won't need any metric sizes of spanner/socket, but you will need some Whitworth sizes (1/2" Whitworth is probably the most common size used on the Moggy). A big hammer is, of course, essential Car boot sales are good for picking things like this up for pennies.

I would also get a can of 3 in 1 oil, a spray can of WD40, and some fine emery paper. The 3 in 1 is a good general purpose lubricant, the WD40 is great for spraying on damp electrics to dispel any moisture, and you might need the emery to clean up the electrical terminals and voltage regulator contacts.

Start, as BMCEcosse said, by checking the fan belt tension. It's a bit hard to describe how to tell what is the correct tension. You should be able to turn the fan by hand and have it slip against the belt, but there should be a fair bit of friction before it slips.

Then set the voltmeter to the next DC voltage higher than 12V and put the probes on the battery terminals. Note the voltage with the engine not running. Making sure you're not going to get anything tangled up in the moving parts of the engine (take that scarf off!), get an assistant to start the engine and push the throttle until it's revving fairly fast. Check the voltage on the battery again. Get your assistant to turn on all the lights, heater, wipers, etc. and check the voltage a third time. Let the engine slow to idle and check the voltage a fourth time. Let us know what the voltages you measured were.

[Furrtiv]

Thank you, will do that. The other half has a meter I can use, but today I'm on my own, so will have to wait for company to return tomorrow so that I can get an assistant.

[nebogipfel]

(1/2" Whitworth is probably the most common size used on the Moggy)

I assume you mean AF Alex?

Just a general point on this question........

I know the dynamo/alternator debate rages on this and other forums from time to time, but the simple fact is - if everything is working as it should then a dynamo will be perfectly OK.

If, your motoring consisted of all night-time in the rain with the heater on (or you have added lots of extra demand items to the electrical system) then probably over a period of time your battery might need a freshen-up charge but the decline would be very gradual and the car would never let you down when running it would simply fail to start one morning.

Sadly I'm old enough to have gone through quite a few winters driving cars with dynamos in the days before alternators became standard fitting and can assure you I didn't suffer constantly flat batteries

Your mechanic needs to go back to the basics and check through methodically

- Are all connections clean and tight?

-Is the battery good (and reasonable quality, because some of the really cheap ones are next to useless)?

- Is the dynamo working properly (and the belt in good nick and not glazed or hard so it's slipping most of the time)?

- Is the control box working properly.?

- Lastly and a bit "belt and braces" with everything off is there anything using battery power? (On cars so fitted, I have seen things like boot/glovebox lights staying on when they should be off)

[alex_holden]

(1/2" Whitworth is probably the most common size used on the Moggy)

I assume you mean AF Alex?

I meant 1/4" Whitworth which is 0.525" AF

I haven't counted up the nuts and bolts but that seems to be the size I find myself reaching for more than any other.

[lofty1000]

It you are stuck with a low battery and she won't fire up in the morning I would use the starting handle untill you get it sorted.

[salty_monk]

Emily used to drive hers up into London every day, she did that regularly for about a year.

It had a big battery on it (from a R19 16V when a friend scrapped it) but other than that was completely standard.

Sounds like your dynamo isn't charging to me. She ran lights, wipers, heater etc with complete lack of sympathy for the battery & I never had to charge it.

Perhaps your dynamo brushes are shot & it's not charging.

Dan

[Furrtiv]

Hm, might have to get the mechanic to have a good investigation, methinks. He (the car) also didn't want to start up this afternoon after eight hours sat outside work, much to the amusement of the rest of the workforce. It's qquite frankly getting embarrassing, as I know that these are reliable cars, but Ector's starting to show me up! And I can't start him with the handle at all, get no response when I've tried (admittedly with a flat battery, in the vain hope of getting to work on time) - but I have used a starting handle successfully on a previous Minor, so don't know what's going on here!

[bmcecosse]

Off to maplins for a cheap meter then - and meantime park facing down a hill !