Cellulose paint

[plastic_orange]

I'd better get a move on - or buy a large stock of paint.

Pete

[minor_hickup]

Erm a mixed bag. Basically in January the legislation is coming in and a liscence will be needed to buy paint for a classic. Whether a fee will be payable is unknown. However the legislation is delayed and may take a year to come into force.

Customised classics may suffer as they may not be seen as real classics needing an original finish of cellulose. However cellulose primer will still be available and this will be compatible with water based paints so home preping will still be possible.

Apparently water based paints can be sprayed at home as long as there is a supply of warm air wofting over the car. Only a face respirator will be needed for ocassional spraying. However the water based paint is far more expensive than celly.

Apparently there is a loophole where-by celly paint will be freely available for use on boats and planes.....not that anyone would cheat the system by asking for a pint of smoke grey for their cessna!

[nebogipfel]

Apparently water based paints can be sprayed at home as long as there is a supply of warm air wofting over the car.

Please remember that the water based paint is only the basecoat (the colour)
It will need to be laquered to refinish a car.

Also I doubt if many of the old colours will be formulated in the water based clear-over-base system.

What I suggest, FWIW, is don't panic. I suspect that celly will be around for quite a while yet and that once the whole thing settles down it will be pretty easy to obtain when needed.

[brixtonmorris]

You will need to prove that the vehicles you work on are veteran or classic vehicles where cellulose was an original material.

If you want to keep your Morris original, there should be no question on what type of paint to use. Dont get a cheap 2 pac respray, unless your in to hot rodding.

you got it nebogipfel.

Cellulose is by far the easiest paint to use and therefore ideal for an inexperienced painter

It is cheap

On the hazard scale it's not the highest - all paints are harmful to a greater or lesser extent

Assuming reasonable temperature it dries very quickly

It is very forgiving of mistakes such as a heavy hand - runs can be flatted away very quickly due to the rapid drying time

Because it dries quickly it tends to suffer fewer dust and insect contaminants

If you cannot get a satisfactory finish "out of the gun" it is easily flatted and polished to a super mirror finish.

Celly has it's problems but as I say it is by far the easiest for the home painter

[Kevin]

Dont get a cheap 2 pac respray,

I know what you mean but when it comes to paintwork is there such a thing as cheap...................................

[chickenjohn]

I agree with Brixton! As a relatively inexperienced painter, I prefer Celly over two pack. Its safer and more forgiving of my incompetence! ;)

[alex_holden]

I've just read the Practical Classics article and it's left me even more confused than I was before. Am I right in thinking water based paint needs to be lacquered with a two-pack clearcote? The article says about the necessity of air-fed masks when spraying water based paint, "No paint spraying system is completely safe but a good charcoal respirator will work OK. An air-fed mask would give more protection but experts suggest it's not really needed for occasional small spraying jobs." If the top coat of water based paint is two pack, then that seems to go against all other advice I've read about spraying with two pack paint. To muddy the waters even further, there's a "readers questions" letter elsewhere in the magazine whose answer contradicts the article - it says "But two-pack paint isn't really a DIY option. The most popular form of two-pack is made up of a water-based colour coat and a clearcoat sprayed on top. The clearcoat is toxic and can only be used if you are wearing an air-fed mask."

I don't really want to use water based paint anyway so the safety and practicality aspect is rather beside the point. The next point of confusion is over the question of who will be eligible to get a license to buy cellulose paint after the new rules come into force. The article implies that nobody really knows yet. It talks about it being allowable for the restoration of "genuine classics" which were originally finished in cellulose - but what if you don't know/can't prove what your classic was originally finished in, what if it was originally finished in some other kind of paint but you can't get hold of the right colour in anything but cellulose paint, and what if your car is a different colour to what it left the factory in (but still a period colour)? What if you don't need enough paint for a full respray, but just a can of colour matched touch-up paint to repair some damage to the existing paint?

I'm currently thinking my best bet for Fenchurch is to buy enough cellulose for both the full respray and any touch-ups that might be needed over the years, before the new rules come into effect. But will cellulose keep for years in a sealed tin? Will the thinners still be available after the rules come into force or do I need to stockpile that too?

[alex_holden]

I'm also still confused about the practical difference between acrylic paint and cellulose paint - when we resprayed my Land Rover I'm fairly sure the paint the shop sold us was described as acrylic, it wasn't two-pack, and it didn't need a clearcote over the top. I think we thinned it with cellulose thinners. Did I imagine it or is there really such a thing as acrylic car paint? Is it going to be banned at the same time as cellulose because it has the same thinners in it? If not why can't we move to that instead of water based paint?

[Edit: I got this wrong. My dad tells me we actually used cellulose on the Landy, not acrylic.]

[brixtonmorris]

Dont get a cheap 2 pac respray,

I know what you mean but when it comes to paintwork is there such a thing as cheap...................................

acrylic dries from the top in.
so bad filler work and defects can be covered easily. rather like ice on a frozen pond. you know the bed of the pond is not flat but the ice (top coat) is dead flat. this saves a lot of time and work. also the shine is gained by spraying lacquer on top rather then hours of polishing with
with celli. so its all about labour saving, but i did not see a drop in charges when this idea was developed in the auto factories.,
celli dries from the metal out, transfering the filler marks and defects to the top coat. much more care is needed, and time. you have to get your preparation correct for a good finish, or it will leave marks in the top coat.
so this 2 pac is about saving labour hours, giving the fastest possible finish with the min amount of labour. its a production costing idea which as all cars are painted in it, its not suprising that that they sell it in the paint shops. Morris has nothing to do with all of this and many resprayers wont touch celli as it hits there pockets.

[alex_holden]

EDIT: forget what I wrote here previously - I just checked with my Dad and it seems I had remembered it wrong. The paint we used on my Landy was cellulose, not acrylic

[jonathon]

2K paint uses the added activator and other chemicals to cause a chemical reaction to dry the paint.Spraying at about 65-70 degrees then baking at 140 plus for 1/2 an hour speeds up the chemical reaction and helps the paint flow better.
Water based paint requires a very high volume of passing air to dry it, so just spraying in a warm room will not be enough.
My paint rep called in today and I took the oportunity to ask about the state of play regarding Cellulose and 2K. The upshot was that 2K will be manufactured until the end of this year and the paint suppliers/distributors will then only have 12 months to sell their stock. After this period the remaining 2K must be properly disposed of as it would then be illegal to both sell or use it. Bodyshops must abide by the same rule, so you cannot stock up to use in the future.
Cellulose is only available for another year, after which only registered bodyshops will be able to use it. I was informed that it will not be available to the general public. Even registered bodyshops will have to order their paint as a special, because most paintstores will not hold stock.
I'm afraid I disagree with Brixton, regarding the magical properties of 2K. Prep is as important as with cellulose as 2K does sink, the surface doesnot stay flat as the chemicals in the paint re activate both the primer and any filler until all are rock hard, if prep is poor then it will show as it would in cellulose
If you are spraying a laquer then this is not applied over a 2K colour the basecoats are all cellulose.
The reason bodyshops are reluctant to paint in cellulose is not because it hits 'our' pockets but more because the customer will need to pay more as it more labour intensive. Being cynical, bodyshops would paint celly all day if they just wanted to make money.
Alex you will have used a 'solid' 2K which dries shiney and doesn't require a laquer to give a shine.

[alex_holden]

Sorry for my ignorance but what exactly is 2K?

Actually my Landy was painted in cellulose - my mistake

[jonathon]

"K is an acrylic paint, which is termed 'high solids',which means it has a high proportion of pigment/paint. It is mixed usually 2-1 with an activator and upto 10-20-% thinners. There will be a new version of these which reduces the solvent contents to conform to the new legislations, this paint is termed 'ultra high solids. A normal 2K ( two pack) paint would be used as follows a hanger coat( light dusting, then 2or 3 wet coats. The new ultra high solids only require a hangercoat then 1 wet coat, as it is very high in solids this paint has the same micron thickness with 1 wet coat as 3 in standard 2K.
Hope this helps

[alex_holden]

Aha, thanks for that. It's starting to get a bit clearer now

So after cellulose is gone, will there be anything the DIY sprayer can use that is capable of producing a decent finish and doesn't require messing around with hot air blowers, two-pack clearcote, and an air fed mask?

[jonathon]

According to my paint supplier no. The new ultra high solids maybe an option to some but I'd have thought that you will still need a proper breathing mask etc etc. There are some powerfull lobbies to try and keep cellulose available for the private sprayer, but I somehow think that it would only be a short extention until its finally phased out.

[nebogipfel]

The other issue with the new paint systems will be that it is unlikely the very old colours will be formulated.

Worst case scenario is that DIY bodymen will have to do all the preparation and priming and then pay someone to apply the colour.

I do repeat, don't panic, wait and see how it all pans out. There are lots of cellulose mixing schemes around and if the mixing colours are still going to be available..............

The best solution is to leave the EU

Probably won't happen but I live in hope

You might spare a thought for the likes of Jonathon and myself, we're stuck with having to use the stuff

[d_harris]

mmmm, so I could still stock up on celly then?

[nebogipfel]

Celly does go off ...........not sure how long it takes but I had a few really old tins and the paint had turned into jelly .......... it wouldn't thin either it became bits of jelly floating in thinner

It wouldn't look good on your Morris

[alex_holden]

There are lots of cellulose mixing schemes around and if the mixing colours are still going to be available..............

I've no doubt if the stuff is still legal for some uses it will be obtainable on the black market to those with the right contacts...

Wanna buy a can of Almond Green for your *ahem* light aircraft?

[nebogipfel]

it will be obtainable on the black market to those with the right contacts...

That'd be the Almond Green market


It's a pity Kilroy singlehandedly destroyed UKIP

I hear David Cameron is looking for policies ........