Cellulose paint

Post by **FlyingScot** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:01 pm

Does anyone know where you can get tins of minor colour cellulose, not aerosols?
Steve

Post by **nebogipfel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:10 pm

Steve, You should be able to buy cellulose quite readily from any local paintfactor/supplier (the places local garages and bodyshops use)

Although thanks to this "brave new world" cellulose will become more difficult to obtain in time, it is not a problem at the moment.

Both my local suppliers still have cellulose mixing facilities and I suspect the same will be true in your local area.

I can give you contacts in Norfolk but it's a long way to go for a litre of celly

Post by **les** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:14 pm

It will probably have to be mixed for you, so any reputable supplier should be able to identify the colour you want and take it from there. I hear that cellulose is going to be harder to get soon, cannot find out for sure though, people have different thoughts on the subject.

Post by **FlyingScot** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:14 pm

Thanks I'll hit the yellow pages.
Steve

Post by **alex_holden** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:38 pm

Why would you choose to use cellulose instead of acrylic? Serious question, I know very little about spray painting...

Post by **jonathon** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:44 pm

Its my understanding that in the future you/bodyshops will need to register that they use cellulose paint. You will need to prove that the vehicles you work on are veteran or classic vehicles where cellulose was an original material. I believe that cellulose will eventually be ceased in favour of the water based variety.
Only registered companies /individuals will be sold cellulose, not sure if a fee will be charged though

Post by **nebogipfel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:51 pm

Cellulose is by far the easiest paint to use and therefore ideal for an inexperienced painter

It is cheap

On the hazard scale it's not the highest - all paints are harmful to a greater or lesser extent

Assuming reasonable temperature it dries very quickly

It is very forgiving of mistakes such as a heavy hand - runs can be flatted away very quickly due to the rapid drying time

Because it dries quickly it tends to suffer fewer dust and insect contaminants

If you cannot get a satisfactory finish "out of the gun" it is easily flatted and polished to a super mirror finish.

Celly has it's problems but as I say it is by far the easiest for the home painter

Post by **nebogipfel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:03 pm

jonathon wrote:Its my understanding that in the future you/bodyshops will need to register that they use cellulose paint. You will need to prove that the vehicles you work on are veteran or classic vehicles where cellulose was an original material. I believe that cellulose will eventually be ceased in favour of the water based variety.
Only registered companies /individuals will be sold cellulose, not sure if a fee will be charged though

Yet more beaurocracy

Apparently celly will also be available for industrial uses?

I'd personally love to use celly all the time but unfortunately it's impossible to match most modern colours with it and of course pearlescents and the like would be out of the question.

Bizzarely, water based colours will still have to be laquered using 2K isocyanate based laquers. It is only the basecoats changing.

I assume all this is originating from the good old EC? I bet that they will carry on doing what they have always done in France

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:46 am

nebogipfel wrote:Cellulose is by far the easiest paint to use and therefore ideal for an inexperienced painter

It is cheap

On the hazard scale it's not the highest - all paints are harmful to a greater or lesser extent

Assuming reasonable temperature it dries very quickly

It is very forgiving of mistakes such as a heavy hand - runs can be flatted away very quickly due to the rapid drying time

Because it dries quickly it tends to suffer fewer dust and insect contaminants

If you cannot get a satisfactory finish "out of the gun" it is easily flatted and polished to a super mirror finish.

Celly has it's problems but as I say it is by far the easiest for the home painter

I agree with all of that! I tried using 2-pack at college night resto course and celly is easier to spray.

BTW, you can ring the FBHVC , phone number on their website and they confirmed to me that cellulose will be available for the original restoration of pre 1973 vehicles to original spec, but only from certain suppliers and you need a license. What that entails is unsure as of yet, however, lower quality cellulose will still be sold for industrial uses, and you will still be able to buy it in aerosol cans

So a car paited in celly will still be repairable in sections in the future, Or even a full re-spray with~ 20 aerosol cans of paint

Its bizzare, why don't they just continue to make it available, stupid , stupid rules

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:21 am

If you want a professional cellulose re spray it will still be available from those shops who have registered for its continued use. The reason it will be phased out is due to the high thinners content, with warer based paint this is drastically reduced. The thinners is as harmfull to you as the isocianates in two pack. If used in the correct environment, i.e a proper filtered booth the danger of two pack and cellulose on the general public/surroundings is minimal.
John, just wait till you try waterbased, one header coat and one wet, thats all, due to its high solid content. Takes some getting used to.

Post by **nebogipfel** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:31 am

chickenjohn wrote: stupid , stupid rules

Most of these EC/Environmental rules are ill-concieved and half baked.

Cellulose use has declined rapidly over the years. So it's contribution to the overall solvents released into the atmosphere must be low already.

The trade, myself included, have been forced to use far more noxious and unpleasant 2K products to be able to match modern paint finishes.

The other aspect as I mentioned previously is that the water based product is only the colour (basecoat) - the part of the painting process which constitutes the least volume! Paintshops will continue to use large volumes of 2K primers and clear laquers and presumably 2K solid (single coat) colours

Cellulose primers are to be excluded from the restrictions as far as I am aware as are most of the other high solvent non-cellulose refinishing products.

I guess non-automotive industry can pretty much carry on as usual?

It is always the easiest target attacked by these so called environmental initiatives and usually the car industry.

Our wonderful government are very concerned about the exhaust emissions from your Morris Minor but are still comitted to building more runways so that 747's etc can continue dumping tons of greenhouse gases per trip

Be warned my petrol head friends I can forsee a time in the not too distant future when every aspect of ownership of our type of cars will be frowned upon on environmental grounds - not only will you not be allowed to paint your Minor with celly but you will probably need a special licence to use it at all and that will only be to attend car shows

The views expressed are my own of course and I desperately hope I'm wrong.

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:21 pm

Unfortunately, I totally agree with you, worst is I think my main area of work, i.e modification will be hit first, then the general use of. Be looking for a new job then you and me soon ehh!!!

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:22 pm

Thats why we should join the club and support the FBHVC who are our voice against the EEC nazis.

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:35 pm

Well the NSRA have my support relating to mods. The paint situation I sort of agree with, as a cleaner world is a better one, and I also feel that some home done maintenance/welding, can be a bit scary. However to exempt us all for the few is poor policy, especially as we are probably at the bottom end of the actual poluters. As has been said previously we are just an easy target and have in the past been far to easy to manipulate, probably highlighting our own national characteristics rather than those, we feel ,are being thrust upon us.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:12 pm

Painting using organic solvent paints as being a pollutant problem was called into question recently in the Chemistry in Industry journal. The author said that basically the French policy of not allowing painting of buildings outdoors in hot weather was nonsense because the VOC's given off are a tiny amount compared to that given off by natural sources such as plant life during hot weather spells.

Are the EEC going to try and ban plants next to reduce pollution?

Post by **nebogipfel** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:20 pm

jonathon wrote:Unfortunately, I totally agree with you, worst is I think my main area of work, i.e modification will be hit first, then the general use of. Be looking for a new job then you and me soon ehh!!!

If our business' suffer I suppose we can always apply for EC subsidies like the French farmers

If we had a consistent, fair and realistic policy to tackle the reduction in pollutants of all types which had been properly researched I wouldn't have a such a problem with it all.

What we have is a series of ever more bizarre, "spur of the moment", soundbite ideas which seem to suddenly become EC regulations or government policy. The whole thing is generally based on pseudoscientific claptrap.

I know this is straying from the point (I am prone to it) but this whole global warming thing is largely based on very short term observations but seems to be accepted now as irrefutable fact.

If I remember my Geology, the earth's climate has been changing throughout the history of the planet. In recent geological time we have gone through several glaciations and warm interglacial periods.

We are currently supposed to be in a warm interglacial.

This is based on sound geological observation.

The reason for this climate change in the past is unknown (the mechanisms are not understood)

And yet, the politicians seem to be able to state with absolute certainty that you and I in our classic (and other) cars are making the planet hotter.

Sorry I could go on - there are so many unknowns and inconsitencies but unlike the politicians I do not understand nor claim expertise in any of it.

I think I'll go and lie down now ............ it all makes me gently seethe .........I am a grumpy old man

PS I know the above rant doesn't belong on this forum and certainly not in a question about celly paint! Please feel free to ignore it and return to more important things like lovely old cars

Ratbag · Post by **Ratbag** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:57 am

... and cellulose was not the original finish on most Minors? So the exemption for historic vehicles won't apply!

Post by **chickenjohn** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:17 am

Most Minors were originally finished in cellulose. Well, my two are anyway!

Post by **minor_hickup** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:43 pm

For anyone interested there is a large feature in this months practical classics magazine on cellulose paint.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:19 pm

Sounds great! Is it good news or bad for the hopeful home painter?