Won't start. Won't turn starter.

[Pyoor_Kate]

So,

I've been having some problems of late. In fact, for quite some time. Shortly after I replaced the engine I had to replace the starter - you'd get a 'click' of the starter relay by no effort from the starter. It appeared to be pretty random and *usually* (but not quite always) turning the end of the starter would get you going.

So a new starter was fitted and all was filled with joy.

Only about a month ago the problem came back - culminating in a complete failure to start - and in fact the new starter motor's off being warranty-replaced because it'd gone to a dead short.

So, the old one was back in, and for a week or two all was filled with joy. And then today we went back to 'click' nothing.

The starter turns freely and isn't stuck-engaged (turning the engine over by hand yields an absence of turning on the part of the end of the starter) - but also the engine fails to start. Last I checked, there was a spark (although I've not checked today).

Earlier - the AA bloke declared it duff cables because he was measuring 12V across the battery, but only 6Vish at the starter relay. He cleaned and tightened the battery connectors and lo, the car did start. Reliably. Several times.

I drove to my mums. It wouldn't start. I disassembled and cleaned every connector except the one on the actual starter (Which I did when I refitted it). No change. I called the AA, went into the house, wandered out to check if they'd arrived and on the spur of the moment, tried the engine. It started. I cancelled the AA and drove home.

I'm starting to run out of ideas here - but how about, the blindingly obvious? Could it be the earth strap to the gearbox not making decent contact? Or is that a dumb thought?

HELP! I'm totally fazed otherwise...

[nebogipfel]

Kate,

It would certainly be worth checking the earth connections.

You could always add a jump lead as a temporary additional earth lead (for testing purposes)

I have seen an engine decide to earth itself through throttle and choke cables. The result was a horrible melted mess!

Once you have checked all the cables and connections and assuming you are confident the motor is good, the other thing worth doing if it plays up again would be to bridge the solenoid terminals with a big heavy screwdriver. That would tell you if the solenoid is at fault.

[Packedup]

Next time it does it, try the spanner/ screwdriver across the solenoid trick. I doubt the solenoid's playing up, but if the cables are all in good condition with clean contact then there's not a vast amount else it can be. Although dodgy earths and main battery terminals could be other culprits.

If you've got a jump lead with you you can also try running power from the battery straight to the starter, though the soft metal terminal stud does tend to melt away after a few times, especially if you let it arc much (I like big blue sparks, but the starters don't seem to ).

It's not a heat related problem is it?

[Pyoor_Kate]

It's not a heat related problem is it?

I think it's unlikely to be heat related. It fails when both hot and cold... when pointing up hill, downhill and level....

Next time it does it, try the spanner/ screwdriver across the solenoid trick. I doubt the solenoid's playing up, but if the cables are all in good condition with clean contact then there's not a vast amount else it can be.

I forgot to say, I tried that earlier today. Still nada. There were the funky blue sparks of brightness, but no movement, nor even an attempt, from the starter.

[nebogipfel]

Kate,

Next time it will not start, get a decent pair of jump leads, connect one from battery to the body of the starter (adjacent bellhousing will do) connect the other from battery to the starter terminal.

Make sure the car is ignition off, out of gear, handbrake on and watch out for moving parts (the fan)


If it doesn't throw the engine over with gusto

a. Dud starter motor

b. Dud battery

c. jammed starter (but you say you've checked that)

To be honest if you tried shorting the solenoid with a screwdriver and got fat healthy looking sparks then it is almost certain to be the starter motor

[Willie]

I have added an extra earthing cable between one of the engine tower bolts
and the tappet chest breather pipe clamp nut, easy to keep an eye on. As
previously mentioned, if your problem is a poor earth then feel the choke
cable when the fault occurs, it will be very hot if that is your problem.

[Pyoor_Kate]

Well, I went out this morning and tried the jump leads trick - and nothing. Big fat blue sparks, but no turny-turny from the starter motor.

I guess that starter motor has died. It was intermittently faulty before, but now appears to be permanently dead. I wish I knew what persuaded it to work occasionally though, 'cos then I could... bodge it for today :-/

[chickenjohn]

Before you throw the starter motor away- have a close look at the terminal and post and various nuts on the end of the starter motor. They can get very greasy down there being in the lower part of the engine bay.

I had a mysterious intermittent starter problem a few months ago, couldn't work out what it was till I noticed the terminal was hot. Taking the terminal apart and giving it all a thorough clean with sandpaper and some panel wipe (or parrafin, wd-40, contact cleaner whatever you you have to hand), then carefully drying the now clean shiny contacts. On re-assembly, the starter motor performed perfectly and has done ever since!

The AA man may very well be on the right track- bad contacts/bad cable.

BTW, if your starter motor is at fault, they can be revived with new parts (brushes etc), this is an old car, so the parts can be re-furbished.

[Pyoor_Kate]

Aye, I won't chuck the original starter, but I don't have time to fix it this morning. Swapping it I could've managed, but stripping and fixing is not going to happen.

When I get the new one I'll clean up everything more thoroughly (earth and all), and when I've moved I'll hopefully get this starter stripped and see what's up with it.

[bigginger]

If you want to borrow an old one, just shout

[lowedb]

It's entirely likely that the brushes are worn out. They get very intermittent when this happens as you get contact sometimes, not others. For a while, a good whack on the starter with a big stick (a la basil fawlty) can do the trick but then even that fails. Brushes are replaceable if you can get them, last time I did (many years ago) they were about 75p a set.

The other thing to check, though I think your jumplead test rules this out, is the crimps on the cables. You can get corrosion where the wire goes into the terminal. This can cause problems. Usually a bit of oil / grease isn't an issue. Bear in mind you put vaseline on your battery terminals. If the terminals are tight, the film tends to break down and conduct OK.

[simmitc]

Forget the motor. Think laterally: It's very unsual for the starting handle to fail - it would need VERY serious corrosion. It's unaffected by hot / cold / damp / low elctrolyte / sluphated plates / worn brushes / poor earth ..........

[Axolotl]

I agree with lowedb, most likely cause is worn brushes or a broken or jammed brush spring.

Try with the headlights on, if your headlights don't dim when you operate the starter, no current is getting to the motor windings (i.e. brushes not in contact with commutator in this case). If they do dim, then the motor really is shot as current is getting there in shedloads, but failing to turn the rotor.

You should be able to get replacement brushes and springs used to be available. Not sure now. Replacing the brushes is a soldering job. (There are four, two for the field winding, and two for the rotor winding).

You can sometimes bodge a broken spring using a block of firm foam rubber to force the brush into contact with the commutator as a temporary measure.

That might also stretch a tiny bit more life out of worn brushes that are just too short for the springs to push into place but don't overdo it, because you'll end up using the brass bit on the end of the carbon brush as a brush, which will ruin the commutator.

Or you can just get another exchange motor...

[bmcecosse]

Just pick up some spare starters - last two I bought were £1 each. At that price - it's not worth fixing them!

[Willie]

Kate, my old boring question. Do you by any chance have the upturned cup
type battery terminals secured by a self tapping screw or the proper clamp
type?

[nebogipfel]

That is a perfectly good question, Willie

[Willie]

Yes John, I doubt that Kate would be caught by that one but the 'cup' type
connectors can give rise to some peculiar faults. I know from personal experience.

[Pyoor_Kate]

In the end it turned out to be the starter. Taking it off it's dead as a dodo; which is slightly unsurprising - it was ?faulty when I put it in. I'm slightly concerned that since changing my engine over I've had two starters become dead-shorts, but I think that might just be my bad luck.

As for not starting off the handle, that I'm not sure about - it's a 1300 engine (with a mog starter dog on it) and I have got it going off that before. But it's certainly been harder than the old 1098 to persuade to start off the handle...

The new starter though, now fitted, seems very enthusiastic compared to the previous one - and much like the original starter. I'm probably imagining it though. Anyhow, thanks everyone for your ideas ))

[chickenjohn]

glad to hear you got it sorted and can get back to enjpoying your car:-), those funny little problems can be very annoying till you find the cause.