Will Not Fire.

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:03 pm

Hello everyone, I bought my first ever Morris Minor (Fanny) last night. She's a 1970 2 door saloon, with the original 1098 engine.
She broke down on the way home, in that she was running beautifully, and then started to run rough and then cut out.
After this, she would start up ok, but as soon as I tried to pull away, she cut out again.
After doing this four or five times, she now won't even fire.

This car had a £6.5k restoration in 2003, and is in fabulous condition.
The bloke in the breakdown truck when poking around under the bonnet said; 'christ. it's all new under here, you've just been really unlucky mate.'
The upshot of all this is, there is a spark at the points, but not at the plugs.

Any ideas that anyone may have would be very gratefully received.

Many thanks,

Napper.

Post by SR » Sat May 27, 2006 4:16 pm

ello mate, roror arm failure is not unheard of, so service kit from ESM, should sort it , rotor or cap seem the likely culprits,wont be a big deal anyway,good luck,steve

Post by **eastona** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:24 pm

I'm not sure there should be a spark at the points. If by this you mean when the ignition's on you pull the points apart (obviously with a screwdriver) there's a juicy fat spark, then it's the condensor that's at fault. If it's only an itsy bitsy spark, then it's probably OK?

check the main HT lead, if there's a spark there, then as steve suggests, either the rotor arm or distributor cap is at fault. If there is nothing here, and the points are clean and gapped (with only the slightest spark when they are pulled apart), then suspect the coil. The coil can be tested with a multimeter, but I can't find specs to hand.

It does sound as if you've been unlucky. Perservere. It's worth it

Andrew

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:33 pm

Hello gents, thanks for your help.
I'll get a service kit asap.
Andrew, yes, I did mean that there is a spark at the points when I pulled the points apart with a driver. It's only a small spark, suggesting as you say that the condensor is ok. Thanks for that.
In which case, do you (or does anyone else) know of anywhere I can buy a service kit today or tomorrow ? I'm about 10 miles east of Oxford.
I can always order one off the web, but obviously want to drive her again asap. although I realise it is getting a bit late in the day now.

Many thanks,

Napper.

Post by **minor_hickup** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:54 pm

Could be HT leads maybe?

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:21 pm

Thanks for your interest Minor hickup.
The vendor told me that the HT leads have done 1800 miles since new. They certainly look like new.
I have no spark on any of them, so, well I don't really know.
I think i'll leave them for now and go down the rotor arm / condensor / distributor cap route, as soon as I can get a service kit.
By the way, your car looks fab, and where did you get the wing mirrors ?
E-bay ? or are they still available NOS ?

Many thanks,

Napper.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:25 pm

Halfords should have a rotor arm. Take the dizzy cap off and have a look see-. A get-home trick is to rub some oil (from the dipstick if necessary) over the rotor arm and the inside of the cap. This fills in any little tracking marks - and can get you home. Are you dead sure it's spark problem - and not failed fuel pump ?

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:32 pm

Hello bmc, thanks for that.
I've proved the fuel pump by disconnecting one end and turning the ignition on, the petrol pumped out fine.
I did'nt realise Halfords would do a rotor arm for the Moggy, i'm shooting over to my local one now.

Many thanks,

Napper.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:42 pm

Oh - you 'may' be lucky - just depends! Hope you are taking the old one with you to be sure of getting exactly the right one. It's a good idea to carry spare rotor/cap/points/condensor - in fact I carry a complete spare dizzy!

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:46 pm

I'm learning fast here.
A week before I picked up the car, I saw a complete service kit for the Moggy on ebay for £18.00.
I did'nt buy it, as I was buying a car that was fully sorted.
Guess that was lesson no.1.

Cheers,

Napper

Post by SR » Sat May 27, 2006 5:49 pm

check out these boys,many happy customers
http://shop.morrisminorspares.co.uk/

Post by **Packedup** » Sat May 27, 2006 8:45 pm

You should have a Lucas 25d4 dizzy if it's all original spec - These were fitted to loads of cars, so most motor factors should have the cap and arm

If you've got a spark at the points (and not a huge one) then the coil must be getting power through it, and the condensor is doing it's job. Unless the coil is very poorly and the condensor has failed, but it's unlikely both would happen at once to cause a failure. However, the "big spark" part of the coil might be flaky I suppose, so you'd get normal LT operation but no spark. Coils aren't exactly pricey if it has failed

If the main HT lead is carrying the spark then cap or arm, if it isn't then suspect lead or coil. That'd be my way of doing it anyway, but I do tend to replace the easiest bits first only to find the problem is the trickier or more expensive stuff...

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:00 pm

Thanks for all your help gents.

I had no joy when I rang Halfords, the person I spoke to was about 12, so, you know, marvellous.
Anyway, my local motor factors is open on Sunday mornings, so i'll have a chat with them. I really had no idea these parts were available in the high street. This message board has already been very useful and helpful to me, on only my second day of ownership.

I'll post a message on here when Fanny is back on the road again.

Many thanks to all of you who've assisted me.

Cheers,

Napper.

Post by **Packedup** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:14 pm

Halfrauds will almost certainly have the right thing, but unless you're willing to explain the concept of repairs and servicing to the foetal workforce you're better off going in and finding it yourself.

The 25d has a rounded cap, compared to the 45d that is more square shouldered. You might have screw in leads, or push fit - If you get a push fit cap (the more modern style) you need push fit leads of course! If you get no joy finding the parts listed for a Minor, then the Mini, Spitfire, Herald etc all used the 25d till around 73/ 74, so ask for parts to fint one of those instead (just make sure when they dig the box out the bits look the same as what you've got fitted)

Post by **napper62** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:30 pm

Packedup,

Thanks for that. Er, what's a 25d and a 45d ? If you're talking about the distributor cap, then I have push-fit type leads.
That's good advice about the mini / herald / spitfire spares being the same, cheers.

Many thanks,

Napper.

Post by **Packedup** » Sat May 27, 2006 11:06 pm

The model numbers of the dizzy. 25d4 is the older one, 45d4 is the newer style (from mid 70s up to the introduction of electrickery, starting with the 65d or something like that). So if you find someone who knows their bits, but not what was fitted to certain cars, ask for a 25 or 45 cap. Then make sure they give you the push fit type if you've got a 25 fitted

The d4 bit is cause it's a 4 cylinder - (don't know what the actual d is for)

As far as I know 25s all use the same rotor arm regardless of number of cylinders or cap style, 45s are probably the same but I've never had a 45 on anything with more than 4 cylinders.

Most places (that emply sentient beings) should be able to find Minor parts in their various books and computers, but it helps to know what other cars shared mechanicals for the times the books or computers are no use. It also helps when you know enough to not end up halfway through a job before realising the part you have isn't the right one (more than once I've found the books to be wrong).

I don't know if there's a sticky anywhere that covers cross referencing of parts, but it might be an idea if there isn't

Post by **bigginger** » Sun May 28, 2006 12:39 am

Great idea - you write it and it shall become sticky

Anybody fancy writing a list of nut/bolt sizes* and the right spaners?
*including where thay are...

Post by **Packedup** » Sun May 28, 2006 1:20 am

General engine bits and electricals are the only areas I have much knowledge of when it comes to compatibility - I've found Minors are so well supported I don't need to know umpteen different cars and versions for each part!

But I'm more than happy to jot down what I (think) I know over the next few days, it's all pretty basic stuff that I'm sure 99% on here know anyway though (and will probably correct me on given my leanings to bodgery ;) ).

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sun May 28, 2006 10:10 am

25 and 45 are different types of dizzy - which obviously use different caps and rotor arms. Go down to Hellfrauds - but DO take the old rotor arm with you to make sure you get exactly the same. The staff in H are never any use (unless you want to buy a stupidly loud wireless) - so you need to just search amongst the stuff hanging on the wall till you find one that looks the same.
But what tests have you done to determine there is no spark at the plug ? Have you cranked the engine over on the handle with #1 lead connected to a plug lying on the head where you can watch what's going on ?

Post by **minor_hickup** » Sun May 28, 2006 7:26 pm

napper62 wrote:Thanks for your interest Minor hickup.
The vendor told me that the HT leads have done 1800 miles since new. They certainly look like new.
I have no spark on any of them, so, well I don't really know.
I think i'll leave them for now and go down the rotor arm / condensor / distributor cap route, as soon as I can get a service kit.
By the way, your car looks fab, and where did you get the wing mirrors ?
E-bay ? or are they still available NOS ?

Many thanks,

Napper.

The wing mirrors were on the car when i got it. They are Tex viewmaster mirrors. I'm sure you could still get them from somewhere. However they are only good as ornaments, you can't see anything behind with them!