Working Minors

[Kevin]

Bill I just wondered the reason behind the changes in Working Mionrs catagory, I can understand the previous MOT`s for the previous 2 years part of it but why the increase to 8,000 miles a year as we have one branch member who uses her car daily but because work is not a long commute only travels around a 100 miles a week and with extra journeys still only clocks up 5 - 6,000 and there must be a few other owners in this position.
I also realise that many daily / working minors dont enter as they think the cars need to be very good examples and miss the whole point of the working class section.
This is not meant to be a moan I would just like a bit of clarification.

[Onne]

8000 miles is quite a lot. I am not even allowed do do 8k a year on my insurance

[Judge]

Bill I just wondered the reason behind the changes in Working Mionrs catagory,

Sorry, I cannot answer this one Kevin I am not normally involved with Condition Class judging, only Concours. and in this category any proposed changes are fully discussed with those entrants attending our annual Concours meeting, and are voted upon before making any changes.

Perhaps a word with Sandy Hamilton?

[Judge]

Bill I just wondered the reason behind the changes in Working Mionrs catagory,

Sorry, I cannot answer this one Kevin I am not normally involved with Condition Class judging, only Concours. and in this category any proposed changes are fully discussed with those entrants attending our annual Concours meeting, and are voted upon before making any changes.

Perhaps a word with Sandy Hamilton?

Kevin, did you go any further with this query, as I too can see this point of view.

[Kevin]

Not so far Bill still waiting for an email reply, if I dont hear soon I shall give her a call but no till after Alley Pally this weekend.

[Kevin]

Hi Bill spoke to Rosie at Ally Pally over the weekend and she said that she had passed my message onwards as she wasnt 100% sure of the reasons, but broadly thought that it was created due to the fact that a couple of entries last year were not genuine working minors but had been used on the MOT and other odd long distance events and were in reality only used at weekends and just scraped into the class on mileage although last year they were not judged as they forgot to open their bonnets.
So thats as much as I know at the moment.

[Judge]

Hi Bill spoke to Rosie at Ally Pally over the weekend and she said that she had passed my message onwards as she wasnt 100% sure of the reasons, but broadly thought that it was created due to the fact that a couple of entries last year were not genuine working minors but had been used on the MOT and other odd long distance events and were in reality only used at weekends and just scraped into the class on mileage although last year they were not judged as they forgot to open their bonnets.
So thats as much as I know at the moment.

But wouldn't this result in exactly the same effect, ie exclude genuine working Minors? Surely there must be a better solution. Perhaps it should be put to the entrants, as in Concours?

[Kevin]

But wouldn't this result in exactly the same effect, ie exclude genuine working Minors? Surely there must be a better solution.

Thats exactly why I flagged up the issue in the 1st place.

[rayofleamington]

But wouldn't this result in exactly the same effect, ie exclude genuine working Minors?

Yup. I've used Minors for everyday / commuting but like many people, they've not always reached 8000 per year.
Certainly when i was doing 20,000 per year there wouldn't have been any point going into competeition - with the luck I was having it would have broken down on the way

[Judge]

But wouldn't this result in exactly the same effect, ie exclude genuine working Minors?

Yup. I've used Minors for everyday / commuting but like many people, they've not always reached 8000 per year.
Certainly when i was doing 20,000 per year there wouldn't have been any point going into competeition - with the luck I was having it would have broken down on the way

Same here. At one point even my daughter was doing approximately 2000 miles a month, but as with any car, mileages vary from year to year depending on circumstances. My own feeling is that this needs more careful consideration if people with genuine working minors are not to be detered from entering.

[simmitc]

There has to be a degree if honesty on the part of the entrant; but how about a series of regularly dated petrol receipts for use in case of doubt - that would at least show regular use. I accept that someone might cheat by using receipts from other cars, but this is just a starting point for further discussion......

[Judge]

There has to be a degree if honesty on the part of the entrant; but how about a series of regularly dated petrol receipts for use in case of doubt - that would at least show regular use. I accept that someone might cheat by using receipts from other cars, but this is just a starting point for further discussion......

As you say it's a starting point for discussion. Perhaps you should mention this idea to Sandy Hamilton as unfortunately only Concours judging comes under my jurisdiction.

[246gts]

I am not aware of how the MMOC concours marking system works but would it be possible to have a section within the marking where marks are given for the number of miles per year?
Obviously the weighting of these marks would have to be sufficient to compensate for the "wear and tear" caused by usage but it could be done.
A car doing 8000+ would score say 10 in this section whereas one doing only 3000 miles might score only 3
Dave

[Kevin]

I am not aware of how the MMOC concours marking system works but would it be possible to have a section within the marking where marks are given for the number of miles per year?

Dave the concours section is different to the `working minors class` the working minors are for everyday used cars hence the title and a minimum mileage is needed, what my query is why it was raised from 5,000 to 8,000 per year with mot proof, however your suggestion for a points score for cars between these 2 mileages might be a workable solution, I will pass the suggestion to Rosie.

[Judge]

I am not aware of how the MMOC concours marking system works but would it be possible to have a section within the marking where marks are given for the number of miles per year?

Dave the concours section is different to the `working minors class` the working minors are for everyday used cars hence the title and a minimum mileage is needed, what my query is why it was raised from 5,000 to 8,000 per year with mot proof, however your suggestion for a points score for cars between these 2 mileages might be a workable solution, I will pass the suggestion to Rosie.

As I have mentioned previously, I think the best person to talk to about this, in my opinion very valid point, is Sandy Hamilton. Unfortunately I am not sure that he is a website forum user, but you could e-mail him on AFJHamilton@aol.com

[246gts]

I know from the Autoglym concours that there is a section within their marking system where marks are given for complexity, presentation, age.
In their competition they have to make comparison with many varied cars from Minis to Ferrari F40's in the same class.
They split their classes into pre 73 and post 73 and so a 73 car would score say 10 points out of 10 whereas a 84 car may score only 3 points.
Similarly a car such as an MGB where most parts are available would score a low mark on complexity whilst a Lea francis or similar might score highly.
In the case of Working Minors basically all the cars are similar but the only difference relates to the amount of usage the car gets hence a sliding scale of points could be attributed or another way would be to mark all cars the same and then multiply the points scored by a factor determined by the annual mileage done.
If anyone needs copies of typical Autoglym sheets I can assist.
Dave

[Kevin]

But if I am right you can trailer your car to Autoglym events but all ours have to be driven to the event.

[Judge]

But if I am right you can trailer your car to Autoglym events but all ours have to be driven to the event.

Even to the NEC if taking part in the MMOC Concours Final when it was being held there.

[246gts]

But if I am right you can trailer your car to Autoglym events but all ours have to be driven to the event.

not quite true you must drive to the qualification rounds but you can trailer to the Final at NEC.
There is also a Class for Clubmans cars which must do I think 5000 miles per year

Dave

[Kevin]

A quick update on my original query, I did as Bill suggested and contacted Sandy who delayed the reply until after a liason meeting and this is his reply to me

Kevin
Thanks for your mail, I have delayed replying as I knew that this subject was going to be discussed at the Branch Liaison meeting this past Sunday, although I was not going to be there.
The reps decided that the mileage limit should stay at 5,000 for this year although it did need to be revised along with some other aspects of the class.
It had been introduced a number of years ago by Graham Hughes (Yorvik Branch and National Rally 'booker in') to recognise those Minors that were used as everyday cars and he felt that a minimum limit of 8,000 per annum was appropriate.
It was considered then that the limit would be an indicator to separate the everyday users from those that were essentially 'hobby' cars that were driven to and from events from Easter to October. The subsequent reduction to 5,000 has perhaps muddied that distinction and the meeting felt that we needed to move back towards the original intention, but no decision has been reached on what the target mileage should be.
One suggestion was that the Minor should be insured as the owner's sole vehicle but that was probably too restrictive for people who also
used/needed a modern car and the meeting felt that the fairest criterion would be to have the Minor insured for unlimited mileage. The discussions have not yet been minuted and will probably require further investigation so that is why the current (5k) mileage has now been allowed to stand for 2006.
They also discussed the perennial problem of former Concours entrants (and class winners) entering Condition, competing with and putting off other entrants, and suggestions centred around a separate class for previous winners. This of course requires communication between branches and monitoring of results and previous attempts have floundered due to ineffective communication, self-censoring by winners is not really realistic. If this is considered to be a significant deterrent in attracting entrants to Condition judging then a solution
could and will be devised. However, if it is not creating a problem then we should not waste time and effort in trying to right a 'phantom' wrong. We have enough intrusive and unnecessary legislation in life without bringing that principle into our hobby.
I agree with your comment about members thinking their car is not good enough and who are missing the point of the class, what we want to showcase is those who use them 'warts and all' in sun, rain, snow or gale. This is their chance to be recognised alongside those Minors that lead a more sheltered existence, like a pampered 4-legged feline Mog, and who can choose their outings.
There is a place for all types in MMOC.
Regards, Sandy.

So it looks like this is going to take some hard talking to enable a fair solution to be reached.

Cam do you have access to the main postings as the Rally info for 2006 still shows the 8,000 mile minimum or do we to wait until its ratified with Andrew Stone.