Beehive Springs -again!

[svenedin]

Title says it all. Probably a very tedious topic for many.

My car did not have beehive springs installed when I got it 35 years ago and has never had them during my ownership. I know that they polarise opinion but BMC intended that the rear brake shoes should have them and so over the years I have repeatedly tried to install them and I have always failed usually very annoyed at the end of another fruitless attempt.

Over the weekend I tried again but there was just no way they would go in. The springs are too powerful and the hook seems too deep. I looked for NOS or second hand parts but could not find them. I have never actually seen original BMC beehive springs so I do not know what they are supposed to be like. I then looked for new springs (AAA4714). ESM sell them but these are the ones I have never been able to install. Various other suppliers have them in stock so I decided to try this.

The new ones are smaller in height and diameter than the (white) ESM ones and not just smaller but more easily compressed. I can barely compress the ESM springs between my fingers but I can compress the new galvanised springs (from PS Autoparts).

I will try to install these tomorrow and report back! I have a new technique as well. Locking pointed-nose pliers.

Stephen

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[philthehill]

I just use a pair of short pointed nose pliers (CK3622B 140mm) and that works well.

[svenedin]

I just use a pair of short pointed nose pliers (CK3622B 140mm) and that works well.

Thanks Phill. I tried multiple pairs of pliers but the ESM spring is so strong I could not compress it enough and turn at the same time. I did some reading up about this and it seems that Moss Motors produced AAA4714 beehive springs with a hook that was too deep and people just could not fit them. Lots of people complained but they just issued a technical bulletin telling people to shorten the hook slightly rather than change the design (perhaps they had 1,000s of springs made incorrectly). The new springs I have are definitely smaller than the ESM ones. I measured them with a digital caliper. I am hoping for success this time.

Stephen

[paul 300358]

I have the correct Snap-On tool but have still only managed to fit 3 of the springs.

[svenedin]

I have the correct Snap-On tool but have still only managed to fit 3 of the springs.

Hello Paul. What does that tool look like? Is it like a screwdriver with a notch cut in the blade?

I have convinced myself that the ESM springs are too big and too strong. It would certainly not be the first time that I have found new parts are not correct. I will find out tomorrow whether the different springs I now have (with the same part number) are any easier to fit.......

Stephen

[paul 300358]

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I think that the beehive is the right size, I think that it's the centre leg which is slightly short

[philthehill]

The problem with using the Snap On tool is that it only presses on the centre part of the beehive spring.
Using the short nosed pointed pliers the pressure is applied not only to the centre part but also to the top coil which then holds the beehive spring more securely and applies an even pressure to the coils so the bee hive is unable to spring away.

[svenedin]

Mostly a complete success just now. The new springs from PS Autoparts were much easier to fit. I did the first two in seconds. On the other side one went in fine but the very last one........Well it got stuck and I broke it. I did manage to fit an ESM spring in place of the broken one and they are now all done for the first time in over 3 1/2 decades!

Locking pliers were no help so I used ordinary pliers and that was fine.

I did notice some uneven wear on the shoe edges. Very minor at this stage but hopefully the beehive springs will sort this.

Conclusion: the ESM spring are ridiculously strong. They do fit but are extremely hard to fit because so much effort is required to compress them sufficiently so that the hook can engage the eye in the backplate. Alternative springs are easy to fit. This may explain years of forum discussions with one group saying they’re a doddle to fit and another saying they’re well nigh impossible.

Stephen

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[geoberni]

Well I've never had a problem with fitting the Beehives, the problem I had was one of them detaching itself because it was too loose.
I refitted it and really must get around to looking for a replacement.
It was the rusty brown one, which as you can see is the same overall length as the other one, but a far greater gap from the end fitting to the spring face. The 2 Beehives on the other side match the length of the white painted one.
When fitted, it's not under any tension.
.

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For fitting, I just grip them with some long/needle nose pliers on the central length..

[svenedin]

I think that has lost its spring! I would be inclined to leave it off because if it detached in service you could end up in a pickle but I suppose it’s unlikely the spring can really wander anywhere with the drum in place.

Stephen

[philthehill]

It may not be able to go anywhere but it could cause a lot of expensive damage if the spring came adrift.
It would be cheaper to replace the duff beehive spring with a new beehive spring.

[myoldjalopy]

Are they really necessary? I've never had them fitted in over 40 years of Minor driving and never had any brake problems other than a master cylinder failing - which, of course, is nothing to do with the beehive springs.

[minorissues135]

I've been looking for some but ESM seem to be out of stock. Where can I buy and would I need to shave a little material away from the hook part?

[myoldjalopy]

Oh, I forgot to mention above another brake issue which was seized brake cylinders all round - but, again, nothing to do with beehive springs.....

[svenedin]

I've been looking for some but ESM seem to be out of stock. Where can I buy and would I need to shave a little material away from the hook part?

The ESM ones are the ones I could never fit because the spring is so powerful.

I bought the ones I could fit easily from here: https://psautoparts.co.uk/product/ahs-r ... 14/AAA4714

Unfortunately, they are out of stock now at that supplier too but it does say only a few days wait.

Alternatively, search for part "AAA4714 beehive spring" but be careful as many of them look just like the ESM ones. Moss Motors sell them as well but a lot of people complain these are very hard to fit.

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

I purchased the white ones online two years ago when renewing the rear shoes.
They would not fit no matter how much you compressed them as the leg of the hooked end was too long to fit into the backplate so I just didn't fit them and have noticed no issues.
Are they worth the struggle and why are they dimensionally incorrect, is it just more poor pattern parts?

[svenedin]

Oh, I forgot to mention above another brake issue which was seized brake cylinders all round - but, again, nothing to do with beehive springs.....

My car has never had them in the 35 years that I've owned it and for an unknown period of time before that! Except for right now of course.

I have not noticed a problem but then I have not always done the servicing.....This time I did notice some uneven brake lining wear that suggested the shoe was moving outwards (away from the backplate) which is exactly what the beehive spring is supposed to stop. It may be that modern brake linings are softer and wear faster. These are the first "modern" shoes I have had on the car that are not Mintex ones containing asbestos.

I too have had a new Master cylinder and multiple seized cylinders over the years (almost always the rear cylinders). I now use silicone brake fluid and have not had a seized cylinder since.

Stephen

[svenedin]

I purchased the white ones online two years ago when renewing the rear shoes.
They would not fit no matter how much you compressed them as the leg of the hooked end was too long to fit into the backplate so I just didn't fit them and have noticed no issues.
Are they worth the struggle and why are they dimensionally incorrect, is it just more poor pattern parts?

I cannot give you an exact answer because the new galvanised ones are on the car. I compared the galvanised one with a white one from ESM. The ESM one is about 2mm wider in diameter at the largest point and also 2-3mm higher. In addition the ESM springs are very difficult to compress. The hooks looked similar but the ESM hook was deeper and projected further.

I have actually ordered some spare beehives from PS Autos now that I know they fit really well and I can compare exactly with the ESM springs in due course.

The parts that actually fit are not a struggle.

Stephen

[Bill_qaz]

The length of the hook was longer than the gap its locating in, so it could not fit into the hole.

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[liammonty]

I feel disappointed. I've been missing out on the drama of beehive springs for 30 years . Some of cars haven't had them, and were fine (pretty sure that BMC weren't even certain they were needed on front brakes, though I know we are talking about rear ones here), and on the cars that I've owned that do/did have them fitted, I've always managed to fit them with a pair of pliers.

Where have I been going wrong?!