Won’t start Electronic distributor problem?

[Jonathan]

Help please! I cannot start my 1957 traveller. There is fuel. There is a spark when I turn it over on the handle. There is no spark when I turn it over on the starting motor - I’ve never experienced that combination before. I have 70 miles to get home asap and will need to take my cat!

History is - we broke down 3 weeks ago. Accuspark electronic distributor appears to have stopped working ( only modern component and regretted!). After 7 hours wait for RAC trailered home. Mechanic gives a very thorough check over. New accuspark new coil fitted. Carb and timing checked, cleaned, set.

70 mile drive - all fine.

Next day. Stalls once. Restarts. Drive 100 yards. then engine dies. Cannot restart.

Fuel, spark on handle. No spark on starting motor.Battery fully charged. Tried alternative new coil.

Help hugely appreciated please!!!!

[StillGotMy1stCar]

The only difference between starter handle cranking and starter motor cranking is battery voltage.
Makes me think your battery is at fault, just enough power to turn the engine over but not enough voltage for the Accuspark. I've had cars where if the battery voltage is low the electronics shut off.
If you have a multimeter check the battery voltage when starter motor cranking, if it is below 10V then you most likely have a battery issue, either not charged or faulty.
It may be worth checking the battery terminals are clean.
Could try using jump leads from a car or known good battery.
Depending on what you find, the charging system may also need checking.

Regards John

[geoberni]

I concur fully with John
Don't blame the Electronics.
Sounds like the 'Mechanic' didn't do a simple battery check, one of the first things they should have done.
Was that the RAC before the ride home, or someone else?

No doubt too familiar with modern vehicles and not the basics.
If it starts on the handle, then it will start. If it doesn't start on the battery then it's because the starter motor is pulling all the power.
The electronics of the Ign needs negligable current, but it needs 12 v.
The starter needs current. To get that current, the terminal voltage will drop.
On a weak charge battery, then the drop can be considerable, so no voltage for the Ign circuit.
Even a Points system can behave the same way, if there's not enough voltage to the Coil to generate sufficient spark.
If you haven't got a Multimeter, just put the headlights on and then try the starter; I bet the headlights dim considerable, indicating the drop in voltage.
Put the Battery on a charger for a while and see if it holds charge.

[Jonathan]

Thank you so much for your replies. I will test the voltage while cranking on the starter as you suggest. The battery is however reasonably new and does keep the starter turning without any reduction in speed, has a good resting voltage output and I freshly recharged it after trying for a while.

Also would a poorly battery explain it stopping in the first place when travelling and therefore battery not under load?

[Jonathan]

Just to add, RAC man needed help to understand basics of an internal combustion engine and simply took us home. The mechanic only works on old cars, we’ve used for 25 years and is generally very good. Though not always available when we need him most!!

[StillGotMy1stCar]

If the charging system isn't working properly then the battery voltage will drop giving your symptoms, so we need to see if the battery voltage is the cause before going further.
Bear in mind if your car has a dynamo they don't charge at idle speed.

Regards John

[geoberni]

Have a good look at the battery connections too, a high resistance there wouldn't help the matter.

The initial breakdown does seem to be a bit of a question mark on the overall scenario, but as John says, if it's not charging correctly, then it will lead to terminal voltage drop.
There might be an intermittent connection cable fault somewhere, but if the electronics has failed, then it's failed, simple as that.
I had problems with my car suddenly cutting out and requiring recovery when I first got him (Accuspark Electronic), that turned out to be the Coil.
If the battery is quite new, it's possibly a charging issue.
But the only way to sensibly diagnose an electrics problem is systematically, eliminating the most likely and progressing towards the less likely.

The new breed Recovery people are just that these days, a quick look, a suck of the teeth and get taken home....

[Jonathan]

Hello again,
Thank you very much! Well I’ve cleaned the connections with the battery and through to the solenoid, regulator, and earth - none of them looked dirty.
Voltage under without load is 13v cranking was 11volts and remaining steady - not declining. Still no joy

What do you reckon???

Thanks again!

[StillGotMy1stCar]

11V when cranking should be fine.
Being a 1957 car I thought it had the pull start switch, not a solenoid, that does bring the ignition switch in to question.
The Accuspark needs a 12V via the ignition switch, are you losing that whilst cranking and intermittent at the on position, so you need to check the Accuspark switched supply.
Are you sure you are not getting a spark whilst cranking on the starter motor yet do on the handle.

Regards John

[simmitc]

Forgetting the starter for a moment, if there is a spark on when using the handle, then the engine should start. if it does not, then there is something wrong other than the battery. I'm sure that you've looked at some of these, but check the basics:

Is the spark good on on every plug, or have you tested direct from the coil? There could be a problem with the rotor arm or dizzy cap - is the spring loaded centre carbon contact OK?

Is the spark on the right plug at the right time?

If the electrics are good, then how is the fuel? You say "OK", bit is the pump delivering a good supply and is the float chamber clean?

Is the piston in the carb dashpot moving freely?

Have you got some spare wire, preferably with terminals or crocodile clips? Take a supply from the unearthed battery terminal direct to the correct terminal on the coil, bypassing the ignition switch. Still keep the switch "on" as you will need the fuel pump running.

Have you got some points that you can fit? Although electronics can be very good, it is often simpler to really see what is happening with points. You say that you regret fitting electronic, so after the first one failed, why did you not revert to standard? Such pondering won''t help at the moment; but is something upon which to reflect.

Good luck, I'm sure that you will get it going.

[geoberni]

What is the supply voltage to the Coil when Cranking?

I assume your Accuspark is wired as per the instructions, with the Electronics unit being fed from the + connection to the Coil (if it's Neg earth).
Is there 12 v on the Coil input, ...what does it drop to when cranking?

If you're Pos earth, the installation is slightly different, but the voltage should still not be affected by the cranking over.
https://www.accuspark.co.uk/Instruction ... ctions.pdf

[Jonathan]

Thank you all for your excellent suggestions.

Unfortunately I think I ended up where I began - with the odd phenomenon of a good spark on the handle, petrol flowing nicely, but no spark when rapidly spinning the engine with the starter motor. Decent battery output even with prolonged starter motor turning. RAC guy to his credit did seem to know enough to repeat many of the tests I’d done. Same result.

Trailered back to home. Decided to buy new points distributor - rather than another Accuspark or Frankenstein distributor assembled from my bucket of old semi broken ones. Once it arrived will confirm that was the problem - o or realise that I’ve overlooked something forehead smackingly obvious.

One silver lining to the car breaking down has been remembering what an excellent source of expertise this forum is. Thank you all !!!

[myoldjalopy]

At least with a points set-up you will be better able to check over the ignition system. It is not clear whether your 'good spark' is at the coil HT lead, or at the plugs. If you are getting a consistently good spark from the coil, then you can suspect something in the dizzy cap, the plug leads or the plugs themselves (although for all four leads/plugs to fail at the same time would be most unusual).

[svenedin]

At least with a points set-up you will be better able to check over the ignition system. It is not clear whether your 'good spark' is at the coil HT lead, or at the plugs. If you are getting a consistently good spark from the coil, then you can suspect something in the dizzy cap, the plug leads or the plugs themselves (although for all four leads/plugs to fail at the same time would be most unusual).

But if the rotor is at fault?

[geoberni]

And there's still been no explanation for the fault only occurring when cranking the engine over on the battery....

I recommended checking the 12v at the Coil input, but it hasn't been done; I bet that's dropping when the battery is cranking the starter motor, because it's the only logical answer to the symptoms presented.

Even if it does suddenly work with a new Points Distributor, that'll just be hiding the symptoms of the fault until a later date and it's degraded some more.... it could be an Ign Sw contacts higher that normal resistance, or a crimp joint somewhere.


I reiterate, this is not an Electronic Distributor problem, it's a 12v wiring problem. It's just that the electronics is more susceptible to the voltage drop.

I'm going to be away from here for a couple of weeks, or at least visiting very infrequently, I look forward to catching up on the saga later....

[myoldjalopy]

At least with a points set-up you will be better able to check over the ignition system. It is not clear whether your 'good spark' is at the coil HT lead, or at the plugs. If you are getting a consistently good spark from the coil, then you can suspect something in the dizzy cap, the plug leads or the plugs themselves (although for all four leads/plugs to fail at the same time would be most unusual).

But if the rotor is at fault?

Yes, the rotor arm too would be suspect! A spark from a HT lead held close to the rotor arm should not jump to the rotor. If it does, it is earthing, which it should not......

[oliver90owner]

Pray enlighten me why the rotor arm should only fail while the engine is cranking. It really is a non-starter, but I await any gems from those that believe that it is the failure in this instance.

There may be one other scenario - unlikely, but possible after all these years. Is the coil a 12V or 6V item? If it happens to be a 6V coil, the car could have been converted with a ballast resister in circuit, with the coil fed from the battery supply only while the starter motor is energised. As I say, very unlikely - but I never discount possibilities when dealing with old vehicles.

I am mystified, somewhat about the connection, between 100 yards and the engine dying, with this problem.

I would suspect it is likely the electronic system that is substandard/failing - but only a guess without comprehensive checking of the electrical systems.

[myoldjalopy]

Eh? Nobody suggested the rotor would only fail when the engine is cranking. But as the OP has not clarified whether the spark is seen at the HT coil lead, or at the plugs, then were it only at the coil, then a failed rotor is a possibility.

[les]

Is it worth arguing about the rotor, just replace it for the cost, one suspect eliminated. In fact points and condenser the same. Leave working out involved diagnostic procedures for more expensive replacements.

[oliver90owner]

Perhaps someone can tell me why, if the rotor is dud, the car starts and runs using the starting handle but immediately fails every time the engine is turned over by the starter motor?

Replacing parts just for the sake of changing parts is not only a waste of money but also time, as well.