Starter motor problems

[gtt1951]

Folks, last week (on the day of our joint Birthday), I couldn't start my black high-light side valve engined saloon.
This car is still +VE earth.
Although the starter was turning the engine over, it was very sluggish as if the battery didn't have enough charge (it was a freshly recharged, off the car, battery).
I fitted a brand new battery and the same result, but this time I noticed that the -VE terminal had got very hot (too hot to touch), so it looks like there is a fault that is drawing far too many amps.
I will have to remove the existing starter motor and take it apart to try a repair.
My question is this - is the Starter Motor on a side-valve engine the same as the starter motor on the later "A"-series engines?
I have a good working spare starter motor, from an "A"-series engine but don't want to start any back-breaking removal work before I have an answer.
This car never did like being started on the hand-crank and, at the moment, access to fit the crank is a bit restricted.

An additional question - is the Starter Motor polarity conscious?

Thanks in advance,

George.

[daveejhitchins]

An additional question - is the Starter Motor polarity conscious?

i can answer this one . . . No it's not polarity sensitive!

Dave H.

[oliver90owner]

Are you sure it is the starter motor. A hot terminal connection indicates a poor connection, which will heat up and refuce the voltage and current to the starter.

Best if voltage checks, at connections, were to be carried out to determine if it really is the starter or not.

[geoberni]

Hi George
according to all the reference materials I have, never having owned a Side Valve myself, is that the Lucas M35G was the starter for all Minors.
(Although I noted the Workshop Manual says later cars had a M35J; but that's perhaps a pre-engaged version for the key start cars)

See this fitment list covering Lucas Starters for post war cars up to 1960:
http://www.classicvehicledata.com/wp-co ... 46to60.pdf

Although I do concur with the comment about poor connections getting hot. If the post was that hot, I'd expect the actual cable to be hot as well, unless the post connection is poor which would localise the heat to that point.
Think of it like a light bulb filament glowing; the heat is at the point where the energy is being expended.

[simmitc]

Check that you have a good earth strap and connection between the rear of the gearbox and the gearbox cross member attached to the body. Also, instead of pulling the starter knob, try shorting out the terminals with a jump lead and see if that makes any difference. You can also try pressing the clutch right down before operating the starter. I suspect that you will end up swapping the motor, but it's worth eliminating other possible sources of trouble.

[stuffedpike20]

I had a situation once with a 1098 where the engine turned over in a sluggish way, and the choke cable was getting very hot.

The earth strap from the gearbox to the cross member had broken.

[oliver90owner]

I had a situation once with a 1098 where the engine turned over in a sluggish way, and the choke cable was getting very hot.

The earth strap from the gearbox to the cross member had broken.

From many moons ago, I remember the fuel pipe either smoking or maybe starting to glow, after trying the starter motor before connecting the earth strap, on a Mk1 Cortina (or Anglia) after engine installation.

[gtt1951]

Great, thanks for the replies.
I tend to have the lead to the starter solenoid disconnected, when the cars are not in use and the Solar Panel Trickle charger attached instead.
On my Traveller, if the battery lead is not fitting cleanly, you get a puff of smoke, as I always start my cars from under the bonnet after a period of no use, you get to see this (the Traveller is the only car that is -VE earth and with a non-original engine size).
No smoke on this one, so I will get some wet & dry fine paper and clean up the inside of the connector and also get a multi-meter out on all the other connections.
At the moment it is tipping it down, so maybe not today.

The carpet, in this car, has been stuck down, so I will have to scrape it off to get the gearbox tunnel cover out to check the earth strapping.
Currently, due to a problem with my replacement right knee, I can't get underneath any cars (or even kneel easily).
The spare motor looks like the M35G as per the 1st image on the PDF that Georberni had given (thanks).

All my current (Minor) cars are pull-start.

As a point of interest, I didn't get any automatic notifications of any replies - I just happened to log in and saw 6 replies.

Regards, George.

[simmitc]

As a point of interest, I didn't get any automatic notifications of any replies - I just happened to log in and saw 6 replies.

You have to subscribe to a topic or forum, it's not automatic or you'd get far too many. See the FAQs app.php/help/faq#f8r1

[gtt1951]

As a point of interest, I didn't get any automatic notifications of any replies - I just happened to log in and saw 6 replies.

You have to subscribe to a topic or forum, it's not automatic or you'd get far too many. See the FAQs app.php/help/faq#f8r1

I auto subscribe to everything I post, but I think I've found out the reason - the website had kept me logged in since last night, so that could be why I wasn't notified.

George.

[gtt1951]

I've fished out my spare Starter Motor - a bit more surface rust than I remember when I saw it last

Spare Starter Motor-1.jpg (2.1 MiB) Viewed 2195 times

This particular part isn't listed in the Lucas PDF file that I downloaded (courtesy of Geoberni).
I also tried do a cursory clean and used acetone (on a swab) to bring up the punched legends (didn't help much)

Spare Starter Motor-2.jpg (2.16 MiB) Viewed 2195 times

Interesting to note it has an Asbestos warning sticker.
I'm hoping to have some time over the weekend to do the electrical tests.

I do have a "spare" 918cc engine, but can't remember if it came with a starter motor - will have to unwrap it and take a look (not holding out too much hope).

The part in the photos has 10 teeth so, as long as the original has the same number of teeth, I should be OK in case I do need to swap it out (the PDF file doesn't give that sort of data).

George.

[oliver90owner]

The tooth count on the bendix does not necessarily mean it will not fit and operate normally (except for a change in speed of cranking). I think there were starters with either 8/9 (or 9/10) tooth variants. Changing the bendix is not the end of the world - as long as it can be carried out safely.

[gtt1951]

Results of yesterday's under-bonnet fiddling:
Got the car started - first I checked continuity with an Ohm Meter - starter motor case back to battery earth OK, voltage reading direct to battery terminals was identical to voltage reading on the clamps, but I still cleaned out the inside of both clamps as starter was still sluggish.
I also managed to get the hand crank in and turned the engine over a few times, swiftly, to make sure that there wasn't a mechanical problem.
Starter motor came up to a better speed after the clamp cleaning.
The SU pump needed a couple of knocks to get it going on occasion, so I also cleaned up the earthing connectors.
Car ran but a bit uneven and it was then I noticed that the SU pump body was getting very warm.
This is where I decided to switch everything off and have taken the pump off (this was not the original, but a working s/h one).
Looks like, generally, all connections back to earth need to be inspected and cleaned up. I will also test some of my spare pumps and put one of those on.
I only have one complete new repair kit as Burlen Fuels didn't have any and the one I did mange to buy was a new kit being offered on eBay a while back.

So - the Starter Motor is good and wasn't the problem. I might have to start a new thread if the petrol pump replacement also heats up.

Many thanks, once again, for everyone's very helpful input.

Regards, George.

[oliver90owner]

Not sure about how you actually tested for voltage at battery terminals and clamps.

Even if there is an almost open circuit between terminal and clamp (clearly not the case here) the two measurements would still be identical without any current drain. There must be a load on the circuit to show up any voltage drop. This is why the voltage should be measured at connection points around the circuit while under load.

The most important voltage drop will be between the battery and starter motor connection if the earth continuity is good. But it could be any (or all) of battery clamps, solenoid contacts or motor connection.

[gtt1951]

I didn't test under load as I would have needed more hands - one to press the solenoid button and two to hold the leads.
As it turned out, through cleaning of the posts and round battery clamps sorted that out.
I removed the fuel pump whose body was getting hot, cleaned up, with a file, the surfaces on the battery tray where it bolts on and then went through my spares to find a pump that worked smoothly and without having to tap the body.
This pump already had the uprated double contact breaker, but it did need the contacts cleaning up.
Pump in car, car started (with some new Esso Supreme 99+ added to the tank) and now runs - looks like I'll have to alter the timing, but I'll do that another time as bending in under a bonnet does my back no good.

Thanks to all respondents again,

George.
P.S. Yesterday I had to attend to my Traveller (bit hod problems too from being laid up for a while).