Tracking - too much toe in

[culp]

Ive recently completely restored my 1970 traveller which included removing the steering rack and replacing the gaiters and the track rod ends. I put it all back and I'm trying to set up the steering alignment I have the track rod ends wound in as far as they'll go onto the steering rack and there is still too much toe-in. The car tends to wander a bit on the road.

Any advice?

[Bill_qaz]

How are measuring the tracking? I would expect severe toe out if the track rods are at the shortest.

[philthehill]

How much is too much toe in?
A measurement of the current toe in would be beneficial in forming an opinion as to what is wrong.
Did you remove the steering arms from the swivels?

[Bill_qaz]

As Phil says have you disturbed steering lever (arms)

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[simmitc]

Worth noting that although the illustration above is a very clear representation of the steering arm, it is not an exact diagram of a standard Minor setup. so do not worry if your car looks a little different. In particular, on a Minor, the damper attaches to the top trunnion via a horizontal pin, not vertically to the top. Also, the torsion bar adjuster on a Minor is a single horizontal bolt that passes through an adjuster plate and the crossmember. Those aside, it is a good generic illustration.

[philthehill]

The above diagram is of a Morris Marina front suspension set up which is as near identical to a minor as you can get.

[Classiccars]

Don't go to kwikfit to set it up.€60 for the front and £20 for each rear WOW

[Bill_qaz]

The above diagram is of a Morris Marina front suspension set up which is as near identical to a minor as you can get.

Thanks Phil, I just posted a generic picture to ask the op had anything else been disturbed as you suggested .The steer arm seems very similar set up moggy or marina. Surely with steering rack behind the axle screwing the track rod ends fully home would cause toe out not toe in as reported.

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[philthehill]

Bill
You are correct - screwing the track rod ends fully onto the steering rack tie rod would cause the wheels to toe out.
One or more photos of the front suspension as is now would be helpful.
Also how is the OP setting up and measuring toe in?

[Monty-4]

Perhaps the OP prefers to drive backwards so it is in fact toe-in.

[culp]

• ]
  I havent disturbed the levers I did replace the nut but the levers wouldn't budge.
  Am I getting Toe In wrong? Looking at the workshop manual it appears to mean the rear of the front wheels (relative to the car) are closer together than the front
  I have a picture of the track rod ends below they came from ESM, is there any mileage in grinding a bit off the back?

[svenedin]

You have it backwards. Think of looking down at your own feet, toe in vs toe out.

[simmitc]

As above, the front rims of the front wheels should be closer together than the rims at the rear of the front wheels. Do not cut anything off anywhere! You need to unscrew each track rod equally until the wheel rims (not the tyres) at the front are 3/32 inch closer together than the rims at the rear of the front wheels. The measurements are taken on a horizontal line drawn through the centre of the hub. I agree that the diagram appears to show the wheels with toe-out.

[culp]

Ok Yes got it back to front. Thanks for putting me right, the workshop manual doesnt explain which is which but I guess they think I should know that.

The tyres are toeing though and by too much.

Not exactly the most precise way of doing it but I used the string and axle stands technique. I have about 1/4" of toe in on one side (see below) so that makes 1/2" in total and the track rod ends are wound in as tight as they will go.

One possible lead is from ESM who have been stars about this. Even though I bought the track rod ends in 2020 they said some of the stock around that time came from Bull Motif Spares and wasnt very good quality. Theyve agreed to ship me a replacement pair for free How good is that?

[Myrtles Man]

Sorry Culp, but I don't think much to your choice of string - something like fishing line is what you need. Also, as Simmitc points out, you do your check on the edge of the wheel rims, not the tyres.

[Bill_qaz]

Adjustable pole like the ones used to hold up washing lines. Inside wheel rim to rim on centre line at rear of front wheel and lock. Move to centre line inner rim front of front wheel. If it rod too big you are toe in, if it's to small you are toe out. The difference is how much.
If you make any adjustments do it equal turns each track rod end, then roll car back and forth to allow wheels to centre and repeat measurement.
Hope this helps, the illustration you posted does give the optical illusion of towing out

[simmitc]

The tyres are toeing though and by too much.

Yes, but toeing in or toeing out? From your previous posts, they are toeing out, and should be in.

the track rod ends are wound in as tight as they will go.

And that's your problem. With the TRE screwed on to the rod as far as possible, the rear of the wheels will be pulled in. As written previously, you need to unscrew each side equally. a bit at a time, so that the TREs are further apart, thus pushing the rear of the wheels out and the front in. The telescopic pole suggested above is a very good method of measuring and better than string.

Good luck, you will get there.

[Myrtles Man]

The telescopic pole suggested above is a very good method of measuring and better than string.

But, by using string, you can make sure that the front wheels are pointing in the same direction as the back wheels. I can't see how that would be the case with a telescopic pole and, it seems to me, you could end up with a precise toe-in measurement but with the front wheels pointing off to one side or the other.

[les]

Out of interest If the toe in was set with the wheels on full lock, or, for that matter, any position other than straight ahead, and then the wheels turned to the straight ahead position. Would the toe in still be correct? My suspicions would say no.

[simmitc]

Myrtles Man raises an interesting point. I suspect that with modern laser tracking then it might be possible to measure all wheels against each other and against a central datum point. However, traditional optical tracking gauges with mirror and a periscope down which one looks to take the reading:

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were only ever applied to the front wheels, with no connection to the rear. Similarly, the Gunson Trackrite drive-over device:

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requires that you drive over it only with the front wheels. I have not seen any manual that suggest that the front needs to be checked against the back when tracking. If course, such a manual may exist, but I have not seen it.

It would be necessary to check that the wheels were all pointing in the same direction to check chassis alignment, for example after accident damage or spring hanger repairs, but that's a different subject from front wheel alignment or tracking toe-in.

All gauges that I have used require that the vehicle is on level ground with the wheels pointing straight ahead (or as much as they can), and that the vehicle is moved back and forth after adjustment before rechecking.

I agree with Les that the angles involved in steering will affect the tracking reading, hence the need to a straight ahead setting before checking.