4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

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Tootall
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4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by Tootall »

My 1275 convertible still has a standard 4-speed box, which is a little noisy and - with a standard 4.22 rear-end - is also hard work on anything faster than an A road.

For ages I've hummed and hahed over fitting either
a) a rebuilt Midget box and a 3.9 diff to help with longevity and lower revs at Motorway speeds or
b) a Ford Type 9 conversion, while retaining the standard diff...

Neither option is exactly cheap but eventually one or the other has to happen...

Question: I'ver seen a number of Type 9s for sale on eBay - some point out "long input shaft"... is this the type that would be suitable for the Minor (with a conversion kit) or is a short input shaft the correct version?

Thanks for any advice.
Sleeper
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by Sleeper »

On top of the type 9 box , you may require a bellhousing ( approx £300 ) , suitable clutch friction plate , shortening of the gear change input , propshaft , maybe hydraulic cylinders ( master and concentric slave ) speedo drive cable etc.etc.etc

John ;-)

Good starting point...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115233940687 ... SwYSZfQCLl

P.S I can measure my input shaft if you like
kevin s
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by kevin s »

You would want the short input shaft one which was fitted to 4 cylinder cars originally, the V6's and Transit had the long input shaft.

Problem with type 9's is most of the ones out there are pretty worn and properly re-manufactured ones are not cheap.

A 3.9 diff would give you about the same top gear as a 5 speed on your current axle the better torque of a 1275 should cover the larger gear spacings.
philthehill
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by philthehill »

If you want the reliability of a Ford gearbox with synchro on first gear you could always consider the Ford 2000E four speed gearbox.
Gearbox availability is relatively good and spares parts are available at a reasonable price.
The Ford 2000E gearbox is similar to the Type 9 but without the overdrive on the back end.
You will still need the conversion kit though.
I have a upgraded 2000E gearbox fitted to my Minor and would not go back to having a Minor/Midget box.
Here is an example of a Ford 2000E gearbox currently on 'e' bay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275176311822 ... SwS8tiEogL

I agree with the above comments in that type 9 gearboxes generally need an overhaul and those that do not need overhaul are expensive.
With a 3.9 diff fitted you will find little difference between the 2000E and Type 9 gearboxes.
Here is the modified 2000E gearbox fitted to my Minor.
Quaife box 2.jpg
Quaife box 2.jpg (1.13 MiB) Viewed 832 times

cyrus
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by cyrus »

Why not go for the 3.7 diff? I had one on a 1098 and it overgears the car but your 1275 would pull that easily. Fits straight in.
Tootall
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by Tootall »

cyrus wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:15 pm Why not go for the 3.7 diff? I had one on a 1098 and it overgears the car but your 1275 would pull that easily. Fits straight in.
I was chatting to someone about it at the Goodwood revival and he definitely suggested I stay away from a 3.7... The 1275 does have better torque but I'm not sure if the much longer 1st, 2nd etc make sense for most motoring.
Tootall
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by Tootall »

philthehill wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:03 pm If you want the reliability of a Ford gearbox with synchro on first gear you could always consider the Ford 2000E four speed gearbox.
Gearbox availability is relatively good and spares parts are available at a reasonable price.
The Ford 2000E gearbox is similar to the Type 9 but without the overdrive on the back end.
You will still need the conversion kit though.
I have a upgraded 2000E gearbox fitted to my Minor and would not go back to having a Minor/Midget box.
Here is an example of a Ford 2000E gearbox currently on 'e' bay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/275176311822 ... SwS8tiEogL

I agree with the above comments in that type 9 gearboxes generally need an overhaul and those that do not need overhaul are expensive.
With a 3.9 diff fitted you will find little difference between the 2000E and Type 9 gearboxes.
Here is the modified 2000E gearbox fitted to my Minor.
Quaife box 2.jpg
The famed 'Rocket box'?

I have to admit I hadn't looked at one, assuming they'd be like hen's teeth, these days... everyone wanted one for their Escorts way back when... So you've paired that with a 3.9 and hardened halfshafts? Is this the hillclimber?
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by kevin s »

The ultimate ford box is the bullet 2000E type, I took the bullet box out of my elan to fit a type 9 25 years ago! The rocket / type E one above will be a lot lighter and has a better gearshift, there is also a smaller lighter duty box used in the smaller rwd escorts but they were not that strong, the one above was fitted to most 4cyl cortinas and capris so there are still a few around.

I remember pulling a bullet box out of a 2000e corsair to fit to my Anglia with a 1600gt kent 35 years ago don't suppose you can pick them up for £20 now!, you can fit the cortina gt extension on the bullet box to move the gearstick back too.

Trouble is there aren't many boxes around with seperate bell housings now, there is a guy who sells a kit to fit a suzuki box in a 1275 midget though.
oliver90owner
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by oliver90owner »

cyrus wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:15 pm Why not go for the 3.7 diff? I had one on a 1098 and it overgears the car but your 1275 would pull that easily. Fits straight in.
I wouldn’t. Sleeper does not provide all the information for other than a guess.

My MkI Escort with a fairly warm 1600 engine worked well with the 2000E gearbox and a 3.78 diff. But that was on 13” wheels with 70(?) ratio tyres (Goodyear grand prix 175s), so I would expect a 3.9 diff would be a better choice in this instance, particularly if on 14” rims.
Tootall
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by Tootall »

According to a handy calculator I found online, going from 4.22 to 3.9 would mean that at 4000 in 4th, I'd be doing 67mph, rather than 62.

Going from 4.2 to 3.7 would mean 4000 in 4th would be 70mph... which still means sitting on the Motorway at 3500/4000...

Adding the 5th gear, with a 3.7 would give slightly more than 20mph/1000rpm - so 86.3mph... 3000 would be ~65mph, 3500 would be ~75...

Looks like changing the diff would be a good first step.

Looking more at 3.7, if I can find one... missed out on a couple on eBay recently...
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Monty-4
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Re: 4-speed vs 5-speed 'boxes

Post by Monty-4 »

I've tried both diffs 3.9 and 3.7, and now have the Ford Type-9 and the original 4.22.

I like the Type-9 and have had mine reconditioned by First Motion Transmissions (~£700), but I recall when originally fit the car felt noticably heavier and the standard crossmember sold by the usual suspects wasn't up to the job. Alloy cases and so on can be bought but at eye-watering prices.

The real answer here is to move to a Mazda MX5 gearbox if you have the resources to make up your own bellhousing or conversion plate. Cheap, strong, light, and available in a 6-speed.
68' 4-door Saloon, another 'Monty'.
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