No spark

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Gerard1234
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No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

Hi all

I have a problem with my 65 Morris minor
It is almost every day on the road and the engine starts in 1 second

However, yesterday I went to a story and the next one was 400 meters further
The engine stopped when I was there and I thought it was because of the cold (cold engine)
But it didn't t want to start anymore

So I took a spare spark plug from the boot to look if there was a spark
No Spark at all

So I called the wegenwacht (dutch RAC..)
The guy did the same and the first time no spark.
He asked me to start again and the engine started straight away

So I ordered to take out some problems in the future
a new coil ,distributor cap and a new capacitor

Everything is installed and the car would start at all this morning
So I called the RAC again and after 1 hour the guy didn't t know where to look any more

He thinks that it can be the contact points (but they open and close as they should)
or the small wire with the plastic that's in the distributor and is between the distributor and the coil

I have ordered them and they will be here tomorrow (I hope)
But I think that's not the problem

There is no spark (not even if I hold the coil cable against the engine)

Do you have any thoughts where to look
panky
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Re: No spark

Post by panky »

Check that the wire to the coil from the ignition is showing 12 volts with the ignition on.
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geoberni
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Re: No spark

Post by geoberni »

To save writing a long list, here's a good place to start: https://classicmotorsports.com/articles ... g-ignitio/

You could also look at this short 1 minute video and the similarly short Pt 2 that follows it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0Z6kbyI0c
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Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

panky wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:35 pm Check that the wire to the coil from the ignition is showing 12 volts with the ignition on.
It has 12,6 volts
Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

Thanks for sharing something to read
Keep you informed
geoberni wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:59 pm To save writing a long list, here's a good place to start: https://classicmotorsports.com/articles ... g-ignitio/

You could also look at this short 1 minute video and the similarly short Pt 2 that follows it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0Z6kbyI0c
mogbob
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Re: No spark

Post by mogbob »

Gerrard,
My initial thoughts are the same as panky i.e if there is no " power" supply to the coil ( low tension side ).
The electrical circuit is :- ignition to coil , then " earth lead " ( wire colour ... white with a thin white tracer ) to the side of the distributor. Attachment is to the low tension terminal

https://www.morrisminorspares.com/ignit ... nsion-lead
This is the " small wire " you referred to in your post.
This part cannot be described as being robust and with age becomes more fragile and fails. Inspect yours carefully with a strong bright light for a broken / damaged wire. Replace if necessary.

We are assuming the wires , to and from the coil, are in good condition and that the terminals are clean / un- contaminated metal , for a good connection. The main King lead HT ( high tension ) is also un-damaged , good with clean metal at either end ? The King lead very rarely gets broken in normal use.

It would be unusual for the new coil to be dud / broken but you could re-attach your old coil to check test ,if the earth side of the wiring is OK.
Please let us know how you get on. Happy New Year to you.
Bob
simmitc
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Re: No spark

Post by simmitc »

Unless I've missed it, you have not changed the rotor arm. It's always best to change one thing at a time rather than everything at once. One at a time means that you will know what the problem was.

Ignoring the leads to the spark plugs, remove the centre HT lead from the distributor and hold it about 10mm from the engine block, Now crank the engine with the ignition on. Do you see a spark? If yes, then the problem is the arm or cap, if no, then it is wiring or another component.
Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

I did try that (cable disconnect from distributor and keep it near the engine block ) there is no spark
simmitc wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:26 pm Unless I've missed it, you have not changed the rotor arm. It's always best to change one thing at a time rather than everything at once. One at a time means that you will know what the problem was.

Ignoring the leads to the spark plugs, remove the centre HT lead from the distributor and hold it about 10mm from the engine block, Now crank the engine with the ignition on. Do you see a spark? If yes, then the problem is the arm or cap, if no, then it is wiring or another component.
Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

Hi Bob

Happy New Year to you 2

I already ordered a new Low Tension Lead & Insulator
It will arrive tomorrow
The cable from the low tension Lead is going to the - of the coil , the + is going to the ignition from the coil

I took the low tension Lead insulator out this afternoon
The end of the cable had no insulation so I cut it and welded it again with tin
Maybe a new one is better I will see tomorrow

mogbob wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:13 pm Gerrard,
My initial thoughts are the same as panky i.e if there is no " power" supply to the coil ( low tension side ).
The electrical circuit is :- ignition to coil , then " earth lead " ( wire colour ... white with a thin white tracer ) to the side of the distributor. Attachment is to the low tension terminal

https://www.morrisminorspares.com/ignit ... nsion-lead
This is the " small wire " you referred to in your post.
This part cannot be described as being robust and with age becomes more fragile and fails. Inspect yours carefully with a strong bright light for a broken / damaged wire. Replace if necessary.

We are assuming the wires , to and from the coil, are in good condition and that the terminals are clean / un- contaminated metal , for a good connection. The main King lead HT ( high tension ) is also un-damaged , good with clean metal at either end ? The King lead very rarely gets broken in normal use.

It would be unusual for the new coil to be dud / broken but you could re-attach your old coil to check test ,if the earth side of the wiring is OK.
Please let us know how you get on. Happy New Year to you.
Bob
Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

As I look at movie clip part 2
you connect a lamp at both sides of the coil

at my coil both sides are + so the light doesn't t go on....


geoberni wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 4:59 pm To save writing a long list, here's a good place to start: https://classicmotorsports.com/articles ... g-ignitio/

You could also look at this short 1 minute video and the similarly short Pt 2 that follows it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl0Z6kbyI0c
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geoberni
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Re: No spark

Post by geoberni »

With a lamp across the 2 connections of the Coil, you're in parallel with the Coil windings, so whatever is happening to the Coil is happening to the lamp.
Did you crank the car over on the starter?
If you have cranked the car over and the lamp remains off, then the points are not closing, or you have a break in the wiring to/from the points.
As others has suggested, very likely to do with the 'small wire' as you called it.
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Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

I have searched on the internet as well and found out that the coil is working.
Your right I guess that the problem is in the small wire but I do not know if it is connect as it should

From the minus of the coil is a wire that goes to the distributor
inside the distributor it is on the same small axel as the capacitor
between the both is a nylon ring (is that correct, or should it ben below the screw)

The wire from the minus from the coil has a small pin as on the picture, should it touch the contact points ?


geoberni wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:30 am With a lamp across the 2 connections of the Coil, you're in parallel with the Coil windings, so whatever is happening to the Coil is happening to the lamp.
Did you crank the car over on the starter?
If you have cranked the car over and the lamp remains off, then the points are not closing, or you have a break in the wiring to/from the points.
As others has suggested, very likely to do with the 'small wire' as you called it.
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geoberni
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Re: No spark

Post by geoberni »

I think you may have insulated the connection with the washer. I can't make it out from the image.
Here is the correct assembly sequence:

Ignore what looks like a cable coming from the Insulating Bushes 2 & 5.
On this illustration, the 2 plastic Bushes are connected together, as shown by the yellow highlight at the Top Left.

#3 is the cable to the Distributor
Points.JPG
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kennatt
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Re: No spark

Post by kennatt »

the pin , circled should not touch the spring,its shorting the circuit,the spring should be isolated from the peg and terminal,by the top and bottom plastic washers,just undo nut and move the connection to take pin away from spring.
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Re: No spark

Post by oliver90owner »

If you have a current meter which will measure more tha 5A, it is easy to recognise a circuit fault. With the coil energised and the points closed there should be a current of about 4A. If none, there is an open circuit. If there is still current when the points are open, there is a short circuit. A simple diagnostic check for those that have a suitable meter.
Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

So if I understand it correct there is no connection between 3.4 and nut number one

geoberni wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:07 am I think you may have insulated the connection with the washer. I can't make it out from the image.
Here is the correct assembly sequence:

Ignore what looks like a cable coming from the Insulating Bushes 2 & 5.
On this illustration, the 2 plastic Bushes are connected together, as shown by the yellow highlight at the Top Left.

#3 is the cable to the DistributorPoints.JPG
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geoberni
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Re: No spark

Post by geoberni »

Gerard1234 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:48 am So if I understand it correct there is no connection between 3.4 and nut number one
Correct. Here's some photos of a new, spare, assembled Points set that I keep as a backup, as my car is fitted with an electronic set.

The connection from the Coil comes in on the white cable from the external terminal.
It then connects to the Condenser and the Spring.
The Spring contact ends in the 'Points' and as the cam moves around opens and closed the connection to the Distributor metalwork to complete the path to Earth.
20220113_111609.jpg
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mogbob
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Re: No spark

Post by mogbob »

Gerard , You are correct.
geoberni's useful diagram ..... base of the stack of bits is the insulating bush No 5 , then the metal points' spring and Condenser lead No 4 and Low Tension lead No 3 , topped off with the top insulating bush.
All held firmly with the nut No 1. Think of it as a sandwich , the two slices of bread are the insulating bushes and the spring and the two wire tags are the jam in the middle (making electrical contact ).
The earth return is the metal body of the distributor in the engine. Earth strap connects engine to body work
and the negative battery terminal is connected to bodywork.
Bob

PS I'll have to get up a bit earlier to beat geoberni's eagerness to help ! He's a good Guy , very knowledgeable.
Good piccies as well
Last edited by mogbob on Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gerard1234
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Re: No spark

Post by Gerard1234 »

Great thanks for your help

I just installed the new contact points (had to wait on the mailman)

And the car runs

Small disappointment , now my starter motor is dead
I ordered a new one so tomorrow a new task
geoberni wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:35 am
Gerard1234 wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:48 am So if I understand it correct there is no connection between 3.4 and nut number one
Correct. Here's some photos of a new, spare, assembled Points set that I keep as a backup, as my car is fitted with an electronic set.

The connection from the Coil comes in on the white cable from the external terminal.
It then connects to the Condenser and the Spring.
The Spring contact ends in the 'Points' and as the cam moves around opens and closed the connection to the Distributor metalwork to complete the path to Earth.
20220113_111609.jpg20220113_111525.jpg
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geoberni
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Re: No spark

Post by geoberni »

And the car runs

Small disappointment , now my starter motor is dead
I ordered a new one so tomorrow a new task
:o :o
Are you sure?
Have you checked to see if you've knocked a cable loose while you've been spending all this time working almost in exactly the same place looking at the Points....?
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