No problem starting, but can’t stop!

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Minor_Inconvenience
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No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

Hi all,
I’ve very recently bought a 1957 Morris Minor 1000 - I know nothing about cars so this will be a steep learn, but thankfully she’s in great working order and lovely condition.
My problem is not with starting the car - she has so far started first time, each time - but the key is not needed. Doesn’t matter whether I use the key or not, makes no difference, and so I can’t switch the engine off. Would love to know if anyone else has experienced the same issue and has any suggestions to help get me started please.
Thanks in advance!
David
jagnut66
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by jagnut66 »

Hi David,
This is an earlier car, so it should have a combination of a key barrel switch (on / off) and a pull starter.
To clarify, what you are saying is that you can pull the starter and the engine will turn over, fire and start without you first putting the key in the barrel and turning it to the on position.
If this is the case I would say you have a problem with the ignition switch itself (age and wear) and, as they are not expensive anyway, I would buy a new replacement and change this.
I can't see any available with ESM or Charles Ware, or on eBay, so give Tom Roy a ring on 01642 723400 and see if they have one.
As you are unfamiliar with dismantling things, I would suggest that you buy a switch with a barrel (already in) and a key to go with it.
Then all you have to do (with the battery disconnected) is remove the speedo for access and unbolt the existing ignition barrel, remove the wires on the back of it (only two positions), one side at a time and fit them onto the new switch, bolt it back in place, replace the speedo and hopefully you will then have a car that switches on / off again.
Morris Minor early ignition switch.jpg
Morris Minor early ignition switch.jpg (51.15 KiB) Viewed 1921 times
The speedo has a chrome ring around it, ease this forward and the speedo should come out with it.
You may have enough slack on the speedo cable to be able to let this hang out and then reach in to get to the switch without disconnecting the speedo, if not the cable simply unscrews from the back of the speedo, so nothing complicated.
If you are still unsure about doing this yourself contact your local branch, I'm sure they will have members local to you that would be happy to pop round and assist.
Whereabouts are you based?
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
kennatt
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by kennatt »

if it starts without any turning of the key,then the ignition is on all the time and will very quickly kill the coil and flatten the battery,if its not doing this ,may be someone has wired the pull switch into the ignition system so that just a pull starts the car ,but I can't see how.
Do u touch the key at all before the pull switch (What year is the car has it GOT a pull start ) More infor required.
myoldjalopy
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by myoldjalopy »

He says its 1957 so will have a pull start. But I agree the situation is not very well-explained by the OP - he says it has 'started first time, each time', but that he 'can't switch the engine off'. But he must have switched it off in order to start it again 'every time'. Perhaps by disconnecting the battery? Otherwise the coil will suffer as 'kennat' points out. So, yes, more info required......
simmitc
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by simmitc »

Hello David, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on an excellent choice of car. I note that you "know nothing about cars". Don't worry, many owners who now sound knowledgeable started out in exactly your position. I appreciate that as a novice, it will be difficult for your to accurately describe everything, but we'll do our best to guide you through it.

The problem you describe could be due to a faulty switch or to a previous owner making a wrong wiring connection. Let's start by refining the problem with a few questions:

When you first go to the car, engine not running, no key fitted:
Are there any lights showing on the speedometer - if yes, then which colours?
Does the fuel gauge read correctly?
Do the indicators, brake lights and wipers work?

If the answers to the above are "no", then insert the ignition key and turn it on. What lights are now on the speedo, do the indicators etc now work?

When you have previously started the engine, how have you managed to stop it?

When you are not using the car, does the battery stay charged or does it go flat, needing to be charged before you can start the car?

Do you have a multimeter as it may help with fault finding?

Report back and we'll go from there.
oliver90owner
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by oliver90owner »

It could, of course, have been fitted with an electronic ignition system which does not energise the coil continuously?
Minor_Inconvenience
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

jagnut66 wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 2:28 am Hi David,
This is an earlier car, so it should have a combination of a key barrel switch (on / off) and a pull starter.
To clarify, what you are saying is that you can pull the starter and the engine will turn over, fire and start without you first putting the key in the barrel and turning it to the on position.
If this is the case I would say you have a problem with the ignition switch itself (age and wear) and, as they are not expensive anyway, I would buy a new replacement and change this.
I can't see any available with ESM or Charles Ware, or on eBay, so give Tom Roy a ring on 01642 723400 and see if they have one.
As you are unfamiliar with dismantling things, I would suggest that you buy a switch with a barrel (already in) and a key to go with it.
Then all you have to do (with the battery disconnected) is remove the speedo for access and unbolt the existing ignition barrel, remove the wires on the back of it (only two positions), one side at a time and fit them onto the new switch, bolt it back in place, replace the speedo and hopefully you will then have a car that switches on / off again.

Morris Minor early ignition switch.jpg
The speedo has a chrome ring around it, ease this forward and the speedo should come out with it.
You may have enough slack on the speedo cable to be able to let this hang out and then reach in to get to the switch without disconnecting the speedo, if not the cable simply unscrews from the back of the speedo, so nothing complicated.
If you are still unsure about doing this yourself contact your local branch, I'm sure they will have members local to you that would be happy to pop round and assist.
Whereabouts are you based?
Best wishes,
Mike.
Thank you so much, Mike. This is really helpful - along with the other posts. I completely appreciate I may not have explained this very well, so will reply to other comments and points and see where we end up. Thoroughly appreciate all the effort and for passing me details for Tom.
Minor_Inconvenience
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

kennatt wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:47 am if it starts without any turning of the key,then the ignition is on all the time and will very quickly kill the coil and flatten the battery,if its not doing this ,may be someone has wired the pull switch into the ignition system so that just a pull starts the car ,but I can't see how.
Do u touch the key at all before the pull switch (What year is the car has it GOT a pull start ) More infor required.
Thanks for this. Yes there is a pull switch and the battery has an isolator on it, so that’s how I managed to stop the engine so far - and from not killing the battery completely.
Minor_Inconvenience
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

myoldjalopy wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:27 am He says its 1957 so will have a pull start. But I agree the situation is not very well-explained by the OP - he says it has 'started first time, each time', but that he 'can't switch the engine off'. But he must have switched it off in order to start it again 'every time'. Perhaps by disconnecting the battery? Otherwise the coil will suffer as 'kennat' points out. So, yes, more info required......
Apologies not clear.
There is an isolator on the battery, so yes I am disconnecting the battery each time to stop the engine running. It does have a pull start and I don’t need to turn the key in the ignition to start it - whether I turn the key or not, the engine starts on first pull provided I have ‘reconnected’ the battery. Thanks
Minor_Inconvenience
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

simmitc wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:59 am Hello David, welcome to the forum, and congratulations on an excellent choice of car. I note that you "know nothing about cars". Don't worry, many owners who now sound knowledgeable started out in exactly your position. I appreciate that as a novice, it will be difficult for your to accurately describe everything, but we'll do our best to guide you through it.

The problem you describe could be due to a faulty switch or to a previous owner making a wrong wiring connection. Let's start by refining the problem with a few questions:

When you first go to the car, engine not running, no key fitted:
Are there any lights showing on the speedometer - if yes, then which colours?
Does the fuel gauge read correctly?
Do the indicators, brake lights and wipers work?

If the answers to the above are "no", then insert the ignition key and turn it on. What lights are now on the speedo, do the indicators etc now work?

When you have previously started the engine, how have you managed to stop it?

When you are not using the car, does the battery stay charged or does it go flat, needing to be charged before you can start the car?

Do you have a multimeter as it may help with fault finding?

Report back and we'll go from there.
Thanks for the warm welcome and encouragement - I love the car and look forward to learning all about it.

When I turn the isolator/reconnect the battery but don’t turn the key, the fuel gauge works and both the green oil light and red ignition light are on. If I turn the key, no change to this. Once I start the car the green oil light goes out. To stop the engine running, I simply turn the isolator dial.

Think this covers all questions, aside from the multimeter which I do not have.

Thanks again for the help.
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geoberni
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by geoberni »

OK,
Sounds like a simple Ignition Switch change, unless the previous owner has wrongly connected something.

I assume a 1957 S3 isn't that different from my 1955 SII, so just a 2 position key switch?

Mike/Jagnutt66 has pretty much covered it.
Basil the 1955 series II

Image
simmitc
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by simmitc »

I think that the first thing is to check the wiring on the back of the switch - if the feed wire has been connected to the same terminal as the ignition etc then that would cause your problems.

1) Disconnect the battery - your isolator will work fine.
2) Take a crosshead screwdriver. Look inside the gloveboxes. On the sides nearest the speedo, you will see a small hole.
3) Insert the screwdriver into the hole and fiddle about until the driver engages with a screw (one each side).
4) Loosen the screws, just a turn or two will suffice, do not remove them completely.
5) You can now pull the speedo out from the dashboard. The wires and speedo drive cable will remain connected, just lay the speedo to one side.
6) You can now see the reverse of the ignition switch where the wires are attached.

That's enough for a moment, what to look for next will follow shortly.

The above is what you will need to do if you do need to swap the ignition switch. Refitting is a reverse of the above, just making sure that you feed the wires and drive cable in and then check that the speedo is sitting as far in as possible before tightening the screws.
simmitc
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by simmitc »

What you find on the back of the ignition switch could vary depending what has been fitted over the years. but in principle, you should find a either a brown wire or a brown wire with a green tracer going to one terminal with no other wires connected. On the second terminal should be two white wires. One heads to the ignition warning light and the other to the fusebox. If the fusebox wire is connected to the same terminal as the brown/brown-green wire then that will cause your problem, just correct the wiring.

There is a second possibility: The wires could be mixed up at the fusebox. What should be present is cicuits which are both fused and unfused, some switched by the ignition switch and some not. If these wires have been mixed up, then you could have the fuel gauge and ignition wires connected to a permanent supply instead of coming from the ignition switch.

Before taking everything apart, just test the indicators and wipers with the battery connected and the ignition switch off. The indicators, wipers and brake lights should NOT work until the ignition is switched on.

It is worth investing in a multimeter, they are cheap enough these days and can be an invaluable tool.
Minor_Inconvenience
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

simmitc wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:49 pm What you find on the back of the ignition switch could vary depending what has been fitted over the years. but in principle, you should find a either a brown wire or a brown wire with a green tracer going to one terminal with no other wires connected. On the second terminal should be two white wires. One heads to the ignition warning light and the other to the fusebox. If the fusebox wire is connected to the same terminal as the brown/brown-green wire then that will cause your problem, just correct the wiring.

There is a second possibility: The wires could be mixed up at the fusebox. What should be present is cicuits which are both fused and unfused, some switched by the ignition switch and some not. If these wires have been mixed up, then you could have the fuel gauge and ignition wires connected to a permanent supply instead of coming from the ignition switch.

Before taking everything apart, just test the indicators and wipers with the battery connected and the ignition switch off. The indicators, wipers and brake lights should NOT work until the ignition is switched on.

It is worth investing in a multimeter, they are cheap enough these days and can be an invaluable tool.
This is so helpful, thank you - a job for me this weekend, hopefully made easy with your step-by-step. Thanks a million!

David
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by simmitc »

If you can post a picture of your fusebox and dynamo control box, then we can check exactly which wiring diagram is relevant, but for now, this should help:
WD2.jpg
WD2.jpg (158.78 KiB) Viewed 1773 times
WD1.jpg
WD1.jpg (176.69 KiB) Viewed 1773 times
If you get a multimeter then you can use it to test for 12 volts at various points and with resistance to check continuity on wires.

It won't make any difference for your current problem, but is your car still +ve earth or has it been converted to negative earth? (Which battery terminal is connected to the car body?)
myoldjalopy
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by myoldjalopy »

Just a minor point David - you say the oil light goes out when you start the engine but you do not mention the ignition light - although it may flicker on idle, it should go out completely when you rev up......
jagnut66
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by jagnut66 »

Another source I have just remembered is 'Minor Parts of Oxford', link below:
https://minorpartsofoxford.co.uk/
The parts will be good secondhand rather than new but I've had no problems with them in the past.
Phone or email Richard (copy / paste his email address and use your own email, as the link on the site wasn't working) and ask him.
Best wishes,
Mike.
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
mike1864
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by mike1864 »

I reckon there are three possible scenarios:
1. Someone has connected the wires to the wrong terminals on the ignition switch; perhaps all to the same terminal, in effect taking the switch out of circuit.
2. The same bypassing of the switch has been caused by these cables' insulation fraying and shorting the conductors together. This could happen anywhere in the loom.
3. The ignition switch has failed, with its terminals all shorted together internally.

I suspect a previous owner has failed to identify which it is, and instead fitted a battery isolator switch; a really naff solution. If so, it creates a really dangerous situation. Any driver (or emergency worker) needs to be able to turn off the engine USING THE USUAL IGNITION SWITCH. Imagine if the car is involved in a crash, or the accelerator sticks, or an engine compartment fire starts. Or if someone parks the car in a confined space.

Let us know how you get on. As someone has already said, isolate the battery before doing anything other than metering.
Minor_Inconvenience
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by Minor_Inconvenience »

Minor_Inconvenience wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:44 pm
simmitc wrote: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:49 pm What you find on the back of the ignition switch could vary depending what has been fitted over the years. but in principle, you should find a either a brown wire or a brown wire with a green tracer going to one terminal with no other wires connected. On the second terminal should be two white wires. One heads to the ignition warning light and the other to the fusebox. If the fusebox wire is connected to the same terminal as the brown/brown-green wire then that will cause your problem, just correct the wiring.

There is a second possibility: The wires could be mixed up at the fusebox. What should be present is cicuits which are both fused and unfused, some switched by the ignition switch and some not. If these wires have been mixed up, then you could have the fuel gauge and ignition wires connected to a permanent supply instead of coming from the ignition switch.

Before taking everything apart, just test the indicators and wipers with the battery connected and the ignition switch off. The indicators, wipers and brake lights should NOT work until the ignition is switched on.

It is worth investing in a multimeter, they are cheap enough these days and can be an invaluable tool.
This is so helpful, thank you - a job for me this weekend, hopefully made easy with your step-by-step. Thanks a million!

David
Finally got round to having a crack at this - all very daunting as I literally know NOTHING. These posts have been so helpful and I’ve tried to follow step-by-step. I really struggled even locating the screws on the speedo, but managed to loosen and shift the glove boxes out of the way, popped out the speedo and (amongst a ton of wires) cleared a space to find the ignition switch. What I have is two white wires connected to one terminal of the switch and a brown/blue connected to the other (with no other wires). This differs from the brown/green mentioned above and I could not see anything matching that description.

To be honest the next part goes way over my head so I might try and enlist some in-person help from someone local and capable so I can learn on the job. Unless what I have described changes the advice at this stage?

Thanks again
David
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Pic of ignition switch wiring
Pic of ignition switch wiring
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jagnut66
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Re: No problem starting, but can’t stop!

Post by jagnut66 »

The brown / blue is your live in. The white wires take power back off to the rest of the loom once the ignition key is turned.
You could undo both nuts either side, pop the ignition barrel along with its mounting out of and under the dash, or back out through the hole for the speedo, depending on how much length of wire you have.
Then get hold of an electric screwdriver (link below) and reconnect the battery (make sure no wires are touching the bodywork first).
With the key out (ignition off) there should be no power going to the white wires. A simple test but it will answer the question hanging over the ignition switch.
Best wishes,
Mike.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271711867228 ... SwVAxgS8Wl
(The crocodile clip connects to a convenient earthing point, the metal bodywork / dash will do.)
1954 Series 2: 4 door: "Sally" -- Back on the ground with (slave) wheels and waiting to be resprayed......
1970 Triumph Herald 1200: "Hetty" -- Driven back from Llangollen in Wales (twice.....)
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