Petrol can safety

[RobThomas]

Thought this might be of interest...

Yesterday evening I picked up a green plastic petrol can of the type that is very common (I have perhaps a half dozen) and is sold everywhere in the UK. When I picked it up I felt the top of it bend upwards as I lifted it. The green plastic was faded along the top face and it had perished to the extent that the handle had cracked away from the main body. I guess they have a finite lifespan and suffer from UV and the ethanol in the fuel.

Worth checking your own ones? In a rear end shunt it might crack open in the boot and pour fuel over the rear seat passengers.

Rob

[Miles1]

Thanks for the warning. I don't have one but was planning on getting one in the near future.
It should be easy to keep a can away from UV, but less easy to keep it away from petrol
I suppose you could use the premium grade which has no ethanol (at the moment), but it might be cheaper in the long run just to replace the can regularly and use the ordinary grade.

Do you know how old the can is?

Steve

[SteveClem]

These new plastic cans are very flimsy. I'm still using ones from the '70's, faded now but still solid as rocks. Reproduction metal jerrycans are available but no idea how good they are.

[les]

I've got a red metal one, don't know if they are still sold.

[Monty-4]

Machine Mart do metal ones in green or red of different sizes, don't know about the quality though!

[RobThomas]

Mentioned this on another forum and was reminded that fire extinguisher handles are also affected by UV. If the black plastic has become faded to a grey colour then it may just snap if you try to activate it.[frame][/frame]

[LobbyLudd]

Thanks for the warning. I don't have one but was planning on getting one in the near future.
It should be easy to keep a can away from UV, but less easy to keep it away from petrol
I suppose you could use the premium grade which has no ethanol (at the moment), but it might be cheaper in the long run just to replace the can and use the ordinary grade.

Do you know how old the can is?

Steve

Sorry to dig further on the subject of ethanol again.
Of as many major oil companies contacted as possible over the last 12 months asking if their own particular premium grade of unleaded (97 Octane) has bio ethanol added. This was the result of the enquiry :-
All the oil companies contacted stated ethanol was added to their own brands ( both 95Oct 'Standard' and 97Oct 'Premium' grades) only one company in fact stated that their 'premium' brand did not have bio ethanol added in certain counties of the UK.
This company was Esso (ExxonMobil) However Esso did state that their 'premium' (97 Octane) did as the exception have bio ethanol added in the following - Devon,Cornwall,Teeside area and Scotland.
( Esso Synergy Supreme therefore - 97Oct unleaded In all other areas of the UK has no bioethanol added)
Each company stated that std unleaded (95 Octane) has a minimum 5% bio ethanol added as per the present RTFO government regulations and their other grades have varying % additions of bioethanol ,

Bioethanol attracts water amongst other known effects over certain exposure timescales on a variety of materials (rubbers,plastics,metals) to a greater or lesser degree, if fuel is stored in a metal container over a prolonged time the issue of the effectiveness of the internal rustproofing inside the container must be a consideration.

The older 1970's plastic petrol cans do seem to have been made of a better and thicker plastic than some of these cheaper grade modern ones (perhaps the older plastic is less degradable from UVA and UVB exposure as a result) It seems it is best policy not to store fuel containing bioethanol in any container for longer than necessary.

[alanworland]

I used to carry a plastic can until one day the seam came apart in the boot (Vauxhall Viva)
It all dripped out and melted a hole in my tarmac surfaced drive. No more plastic.
I use steel jerry cans now, 20 and 10 litres, excellent!

Alan

[Miles1]

LobbyLudd - thanks for the update on ethanol. I use fuel in Lancashire, but it must only be a matter of time before ethanol free fuel will be unavailable everywhere.

I would like to carry some spare fuel (gauge is not very accurate) but it sounds like it may be more trouble than it's worth. I might just buy a plastic can, allow the car to run out of fuel while noting the range the last quarter tank gives me and use the can to get going again. Then just use the can for longer journeys only.

At least that way I know when to refill the main tank.

[BLOWNMM]

Attached pic of a steel 5 litre jerry can carried in the boot of my Minor. The red plastic can previously carried was not vented and during one hot day I could smell petrol fumes. When the boot was opened the plastic can had swelled to the point where it would not stay upright on its base because it was bulging out causing it to roll over. It must have been close to rupturing!
Bob

[Hubert]

I have read the above posts with great interest and would like to contribute my own experiences.

I don't know the situation in Britain, but over here in Germany all types of petrol do contain ethanol. The standard 95 octane petrol (called super) and the 98 or 105 octane fuel (called super plus) contain about 5 % ethanol. We also have a fuel called E 10 which contains 10 % ethanol, and some petrol stations sell "bio-ethanol" which contains about 85 % of that stuff. That means there is no fuel available which is without ethanol. The plastic which the cans are made of, I think it is PVC, is not affected by ethanol. I think this has something to do with the softeners in that Kind of plastic.

I have driven cars since 1976, and allowing to the much smaller tanks in our older cars I have almost all the time carried a spare can in my cars. I still have all the old cans from the 1970s, one from the 1990s when I bought my first diesel powered car and one bought at Halfords of Bristol when I picked up my Morris Minor in 2010. At the moment I don't see the need for a spare can in any of my cars, but they are all still in use to store the carburants for my lawn mower, the chain saw and my and my wife's scooters.

I can tell you that I never had any of the problems mentioned in this thread. All the cans, old and new are still as solid as they were when purchased. What I noticed is that they (of course!) do swell when they are left in an overheated car. But all the cans I own have either a stamp of the German TÜV or a CE mark which means they have been tested, and one of the tests is the pressure to burst. Unless you don't overfill the can (they are usually made to hold 5 litres, but filled to the top they hold approx. 5,7 litres) there is enough space for the gases to expand without a risk of bursting. It is important to stop the nozzle at 5 litres when you fill the cans at the petrol station!

One danger I acknowledge is what happens if the cans are exposed to the sunlight for a loger period. The UV radiation weakens all kinds of plastic and sort of dries it out in a way that it becomes fragile. I have had this effect with plactic parts of our greenhouse and even hooks in the bathroom, but never with my petrol cans.

By the way, although I don't regard ethanol as a great danger for engines in our cars I am aginst it and refuse to buy it. Ethanol is produced from sweetcorn, straw and other plants, and I can't see a point in cutting rainforests or using agricultural land, which could be better used to grow food for humans or animals, to produce carburants for our cars.

Hubert

[LobbyLudd]

I



By the way, although I don't regard ethanol as a great danger for engines

Hubert

Just thought the following may be of interest. The latest Practical Classics, Dec 2016 page 106, has an article by Nigel Clark who highlights the dangers of weakening of his rubber fuel hoses on his 1977 Reliant Scimitar (He appears to put it down to rubber v ethanol and the article highlights Reliants are fibreglass bodied and also highlights the possible vunerable added fire dangers) . In the article it says some unfortunate fires (some total losses) have been put down to the danger of ethanol weakening rubber fuel hose and petrol leaking onto manifolds. It reminds the reader that - quote - "modern replacement fuel hoses are graded with R numbers. Essentially the higher the R number the greater resistance to ethanol. R10 being the highest relevent rating".
He continues "Cohline Biohose is original equipment in the German motor industry and this exceeds all current R ratings to provide their present industry with as much resistant effect to bio ethanol "
(The Reliant,Scimitar and Scimitar owners club have taken the initiative to warn all its members of the potential danger of sub standard non ethanol tolerant rubber fuel lines) Anyway it's his article I have quoted from and it makes interesting reading.

I also understand in the USA certain car manufactures models (one is Toyota) have had warning signs on certain cars for some time, on the fuel filler port, instructing not to use certain grades of fuel containing ethanol that in effect should not exceed certain specific % levels . Apparently these particular car makers wish to cover themselves in some way against any further claims if higher than recommended levels of ethanol are found to be diagnosed in any way as causing any engine problem.

We have fairly low % additions at the moment in the UK but things may become more worrying for classics if legislation greatly increases on the present levels ( can accept the important reasoning that it's all designed to be better for the environment and for use in the many new generation cars with appropriate engines ) but it seems the older the car the more would be the concern to find a solution. The issue is to keep or classics running without any danger to older materials that were used in the older days if much higher % level ethanol fuel mixtures take over as the only type at filling stations. .
The debate will go on !

[MorrismattVan]

I always use the " old fashioned " metal jerry cans, but the little plastic ones do come in handy, though, to be honest, plastic does break down over the years, you can't beat a bit of good old lump of steel!!!!

[Hubert]

LobbyLudd
He continues "Cohline Biohose is original equipment in the German motor industry and this exceeds all current R ratings to provide their present industry with as much resistant effect to bio ethanol "
(The Reliant,Scimitar and Scimitar owners club have taken the initiative to warn all its members of the potential danger of sub standard non ethanol tolerant rubber fuel lines) Anyway it's his article I have quoted from and it makes interesting reading.

Hello LobbyLudd,

I have subscribed Practical Classics and have read the article you mention.

When I wrote that I don't consider ethanol as a danger for engines, I thought of the engine itself. When unleaded petrol was introduced many drivers experienced damages to their engines due to the lack of lubrication from the leadtetraethyl that was banned from the carburant. This has lead to damages of valves and pistons. Damages like those are very unlikely to occur with E10-petrol.

However I fully realize the dangers of ethanol to older fuel hoses and gaskets made of materials that don't resist ethanol. An even bigger disadvantage, especially for us who drive older cars, may be the fact that ethanol will break the silt at the bottom of our petrol tanks, which can then block the fuel lines to the carburettors.

The introduction of petrol with higher ethanol contents has been due to a political decision, there has never been a technical reason or necessity.

Hubert