How do I fix the solenoid?

Post by **Idral** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:40 pm

My Morris Minor just passed its MOT somehow but the garage said the solenoid for the right indicator was very weak and needed replacing and pointed to a silver box on the the left wall on the engine compartment.
Any ideas where I would find a replacement silver box, what is it called and how much is it going to cost?

All help much appreciated.

Post by **morrismanic** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:23 pm

I am thinking that you are talking about the flasher unit small silver can under the fuse box you can pick up a new one from a car shop like halfords

Post by **_h_____** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:55 pm

Not a tricky job, just check the connectors on the end of the wires are the same, else you may need to change them depending on the year of your car.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:45 pm

What year is your car?

For a late saloon (1963 onwards)
If it's just the right hand indicators that are playing up, then it's unlikely to be the flasher unit... This just flashes the feed to the indicator stalk, so the flasher unit doesn't know which indicators are on. Problems affecting on side could be with the stalk, the wiring or the condition of the lights themselves (poor grond, poor connection to bulb etc..)

For an early saloon (up to 1961)
These didn't have flashing indicators so a flasher unit would have been added afterwards. More than likely it is the same type of circuit as the late saloons, and therefore the same detail applies.

For the odd cars in between (around 1962) with flashing side lights and flashing brake light at the rear:
These have a big relay box mounted on the left hand inner wing in the engine bay - from memory it may be grey, but I dont remember it being silver. It is the same size and shape as the voltage regulator (big black box on the bulkhead). If the big relay box is still in use (ie it hasn't been converted to flashing orange indicators) then the problem could be either wiring, connectors, the stalk, the lights, or something dodgy in the dreaded box itself. As so few cars had one, and even fewer still in use you may have trouble getting someone who knows the innards of the relay box very well. A decent electronics tecnician should be able to trouble shoot it given a few spare hours, and is probably less hassle just to get a half decent mechanic to wire in a new circuit for flashing orange lights.

Post by **Idral** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 am

Hmm, not good news, it sadly is a 1962 and the grey/silver box is where you said, it is around the size of a block of butter.
Would I need to go to a specialist to get tehm to wire a circuit for the indicators or would any garage do this? Cost?

Thanks

Post by **rayofleamington** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:19 am

It can't hurt to get the system looked at, as the problem might not be the relay box - Garage mechanics have a habit of making their best guess and are often correct but as they have to deal with thousands of types of car they're knowledge is spread a bit thinly, so they can't get it right every time.
If it is the relay box:
Just had a thought - It may be worth trying the Minor centres first as they might know what to do with the big relay box. Try phoning a few of them that advertise in the club magazine, and do repairs and resto's (depends which part of the country you are in..)
Also some places handle second hand spares - again look for the ad's and also in the classifieds.

For converting to modern flashing Orange, cost varies depending on labour rate and how much you spend on the orange lights (eg. London labour rate is about 3 times more than south west wales). If you are on a tight budget, then you should be able to find some orange lights at an autojumble.
There's 2 options - either convert to the later combined sidelight/indicators or add seperate orange lights - the seperate ones can look very unsightly but it allows to keep the original lights.

If you want to keep the flashing side lights, then try all the minor centres and second hand spares people first.

Good luck!
Ray.

Post by **Idral** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:27 am

OK, thanks for the help, finaly if I was looking for a replacement what is the exact name of the grey box? Is it simpily the 'relay box'?

Thanks

Post by **rayofleamington** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:39 am

Erm

good question
It's a flashing sidelight relay box from a 62 Minor...

Post by **Scott** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:15 am

It is possible to replace the "flashing sidelight relay box" using 3 modern type relays.

From memory, at least 1 (maybe all 3) has to be a changeover relay. They won't quite fit nicely into the original box as there are a few connections to make between them, but it works well & is reliable.

They were fitted to most LCVs out here, so maybe someone in the UK LCV register can help with a replacement.

Post by **newagetraveller** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:11 am

Whenever my indicators have failed in the past, if both sides failed then the flasher was usually at fault but if only one side was faulty then there was usually something wrong with the bulb and/or lighting circuit.
Admittedly this applied to cars using the more modern cylindrical flasher unit but I think that you should check the indicator bulbs and wiring thoroughly, possily swopping over the bulbs from side to side, before trying to source one of those rectangular flasher units.

Having the wrong wattage bulbs in one side will also make a difference i.e. it will cause the two sides to stay on for different times when the indicators are flashing.

Post by **Alec** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:26 am

Hello Idral,
the unit you need is listed in the Holden catalogue (www.holden.co.uk) part number 33117/DB 10. The bad news is the price at £69.00.
They do, however also sell mini single pole changeover relays, 20 amp rating at £4.88 each , part number 080.805, so three of those would be a lot cheaper.
What exactly did he mean "the right solenoid is weak", are both right indicators affected? You could try swopping the right and left connections at the relay to see if the fault also changes side. This would identify that it is the relay at fault if that occurs. The connections are-
term 1 green\brown from flasher relay, term 2 green\red to lh front flasher, term 3 white\purple to lh rear flasher\stop, term 4 green\blue from indicator switch, term 5 green\purple from brake light switch, term 6 green\white to rh front flasher, term 7 white\brown to rh rear flasher\stop, term 8 green\yellow from indicator switch.
good luck,
Alec

Post by **Idral** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:13 pm

Hmm, sounds a bit out of my league of technical skills. I went to Les Smith on Sat and ordered a new 'flasher relay box' for a 1962 Morris Minor (screw connections) sounds like what I need but didn't cost £69, only £9.99?
Have I gone and ordered the wrong part?
Dont really know what the garage ment, they were quite vague, but the indicators seem equal in brightness but quite dull, not much to compare to though!

Thanks for all the help

Post by **Alec** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 7:10 am

Hello Idral,
I would guess that the unit for £9.99 will be the flasher relay, not the relay box which switches between stop light and flashers.
I have never actually seen this set up and my manual doesn't give the internal circuit. Are both stop lights equal in intensity?

Alec?

Post by **rayofleamington** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 10:27 am

Idral,
If they work OK in your opinion, then don't worry as much.
as long as they can be seen flashing by other motorists, then it's not as much of an issue. The relay box affects the flashing frequency (ie how long they stay on and how long they go off for). So maybe the 'poor' side is staying on or off a bit longer or shorter than it should. Have a look to see if that's what they meant by comparing one side to the other.
Ray.

Post by **Alec** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:56 pm

Hello Ray,
are you sure?, as normally the flash rate is determined by the flasher relay and this in turn is dependant on the load of the lamps, i.e. the current drawn.
This is why if one lamp fails the other stays on as it is not passing enough current to heat the bi-metallic strip to cause it to bend and break the circuit.
Alec

Post by **rayofleamington** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:48 am

Alec,
I didn't tink the big relay box worked on the same principle (ie it doesn't use the lamp current for a bimetalic heater). I might be wrong on that?!? but I don't see how it would, considering it flashes the rear brake light, whether the brakes are on or not...

Certainly for the modern indicator flasher unit (the small round silver one) used with seperate amber lights the condition of the circuit, bulb and bulb housing is critical for the correct the flash frequency.

Post by **Alec** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:56 am

Hello Ray,
I agree, I may have misunderstood your earlier point.
The large relay box can only be a switching station between the brake and indicator circuits.
Looking at thr problem, I believe that two double pole changeover relays would be required rather than three single pole change over relays, as an alternative to the original relay.

Alec

Post by **rupert** » Sun Mar 28, 2004 10:21 pm

I have one of these "change over" cars. What everyone has said so far is pretty much right, but the big, butter sized, '62 only relay on the inner wing is for the rear indicators only so probably isn't the cause of the problem. It is also just a passive component, ie. it only does something if the brake lights are on. If you are going to change over to orange indicators at the back, then you can run a pair of wires from the front indicators to the rear and wire the orange indicators up to these. The relay thing would have to be removed, but the 4 wires on each side would just have to be connected together (if you see what i mean).

hope this helps - if you need more info just say mail me

Rupert

Post by **rupert** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:32 pm

oops! just had a look at my wiring diagram and the wiring needed to remove the block of butter relay is a little more involved than I described in my last post - sorry!
Rupert