Converting from Leaded to U/Lead Petrol

Post by **rache_ev** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:21 pm

My Dad dropped my new Moggy off at the garage for a few essential jobs, before she comes to live with me and the guy at the garage is selling off 2 Moggys. One is Morris Minor 1000, 1965, Blue, Non Split W/S and the other is a Traveller, similar age etc etc. He has restored both himself and are real beauties. Anyway, my Dad has become smitten with my car and has become intrigued with the saloon this guy is selling. He is selling for £1900 with MOT for 12 months but, one drawback!!! Not been converted. Is this a problem ie will he still be able to run it in 10 years before all the leaded fuel runs out? Do they pass emissions tests at MOT without putting additives etc in the fuel tank to reduce emissions? What is the cost to convert them and are the parts easy to come by to have them converted? Would the parts to convert have to be new or can you recycle off another car? Any advice would be great.

Post by **Matt** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:27 pm

Youve opened a whole kettle of fish here..... to get the car converted (i think) its several hundred pounds, but if you are lucky you might be able to find an unleaded head quite cheaply off another car. I don't personally use additives because mine has been converted, but a couple of the people here do and im sure they will give an opinion. The other option is just to run it on unleaded without conversion or additives, if you drive the car really gently and not that many miles a year, its not that much of an issue!

Post by **Gareth** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:54 pm

Welcome to our world...!

For unleaded conversion, there are four options, broadly speaking:

1. Get an unleaded head fitted. This can be several hundred pounds, but is a fit-and-forget thing. Available new/recon from Minor specialists.
2. Use an additive, but one that's been passed by the FBHVC. A bit of a fiddle, and could get expensive if you use the car daily. A bottle's about a tenner?
3. Use a catalyst. These drop in the tank and alter the rating of petrol. Allegedly. Widely reputed not to work, but I've used one for four years with no problems. Although four years on unleaded out of forty years on four-star isn't much... Catalysts can be around £30-£50, but most people on here don't think they work...
4. Rely on the "lead memory" and use unleaded until it goes pop (although if it's just a sunday car, then it might be a long time!), and then start at number 1. I use Optimax, which is about 82p a litre, here...

Emissions test:
For a car of this age, the emissions test should be this sequence:

1. Start engine.
2. Leave to idle for a while.
3. Get an assistant to stand behind car.
4. Rev engine.
5. If assistant can still see, the car passes. If the assistant is lost in a cloud of smoke, then it fails.

[lol]

Broadly speaking...

Post by **Matt** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:58 pm

yeah so long as there is no visible smoke you will pass emissions!

Post by **MrA.Series** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:36 pm

I use unleaded with Redex Lead Replacement additive, not yet passed any FBHVC tests, but then again I don't know if any tests have been done on it. It's made by Honeywell. It's great and havve had no problems with it. I measure it out in a test tube - bit fiddly, but not really a hastle if your not a lazy bugger.

http://www.honeywell.com.au/business/ho ... ex/lr.html

Post by **rayofleamington** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:43 pm

Welcome to the board!

Gareth mentioned the options, but option 3 is the same as option 4 except you pay £30+ for some scrap tin to sit in your tank.
If something works, they will use independant test results from a natioanlly accredited and reputable test house - if they don't, then even the supplier doesn't think it works, hence not spending any money to get it properly tested.
Surprisingly, none of the 'fuel catalyst / fuel pellet/ inline magnet' people wanted their products tested when the FBHVC ran the additive tests at MIRA. These tests were thorough, and not all products passed... Enough said?
Hmmm, whinge over now ;-)

The castrol additive with octane booster is a tenner a bottle (its about the most expensive one, but it is FBHVC approved), but this still works out to less than 1p per mile. I use it as I drive very hard, using high revs, so I would burn the valves within a few thousand miles if I didn't use something. Using supermarket petrol plus the additive with octane booster is probably cheaper than buying Optimax, so in context it's not bad value.

As Gareth mentioned, if you drive 'lightly' the valves will probably last a very long time without having to do anything. If you plan to have the head converted, you may as well drive with no additive until the valves start to go - who knows it may never happen! Even if the head needs doing after a year, you haven't lost anything.
An unleaded head costs about £150 to £180 exchange for DIY, but a few places quote towards £300 supplied and fitted.

If you do 2000 to 3000 miles per year, it takes 20 years to break even on a £300 head conversion compared to using the £10 Castrol additive!! (about 50,000 miles). The resale of a Minor isn't really increased with the head conversion, so you have to be sure you are going to get a lot of use from the car to justify the expense.
Of course if the car is a daily driver, and you do 10,000 miles per year it still takes 5 years to break even, but then the hassle factor of putting some additive in the tank when you fill up twice a week has to be considered as well.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:47 pm

MrA.Series,
From memory - the Redex one failed the tests at MIRA?! Would be worth checking...

The nice thing about the castrol additive is that it hass a second bit at the top of the bottle so you just squeeze it until you get the right amount.

Post by **MrA.Series** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:50 pm

Oh Crumbs! I'm gonna switch to Castrol when this bottle runs out!

Post by **Alec** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:04 pm

Hello all,
I use Millers Oil's VSP additive (also FHVPS approved) in my Triumph, this also is an octane booster and I pay £3.50 ish per bottle which treats 40 litres of petrol. I buy mine by the box of ten from Frost's of Rochdale.
You can still buy leaded petrol at some garages but the price is about £1.00 per litre. It is difficult to say if it will always be available, it depends on it being commercially viable. Leaded petrol is still used by aircraft, there is no restriction there. (Piston engined aircraft that is)
By the way additives do not decrease emmissions.

Alec

Post by **Kevin** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:07 pm

We have a branch member who has done thet for the last 4 years and only uses unleaded and as his engine had done 120,000 he says what have I got to loose at this mileage and as most of his town driving is underr 55mph its not really an issue, well the car has now done over 140,000 and is still running OK all that has been done is a slight timing adjustment, so unless you are doing high mileages at high speeds I think you would be unlucky to have a problem, or as others do use an additive if you are worried.

Post by **s.richardson** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:30 pm

alec ,hiya mate i drive 20 miles for my leaded at £1.15 a litre ,but ithink no more ray has got a good point ,i only do about 100 miles a month, sometimes less wen im doing jobs on it,steve

Post by **Peetee** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:29 pm

Do they pass emissions tests at MOT without putting additives etc in the fuel tank to reduce emissions?

The emissions test is graded relative to the age of the car. You don't have to achieve the sort of 'clean' levels achieveable by a modern car fitted with a catalyst. The allowable emmissions for a car the age of a Minor are very much higher than a modern car.

Post by **Matt** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:14 pm

ie. no visible smoke for anything made before 1973(?) which all minors are.....

Post by **pskipper** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:19 am

It's not even that, according to the MOT manual it's acceptable levels of smoke, so your exhaust can be a little smoky, just depends on the MOT man.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:28 am

£3.50 ish per bottle which treats 40 litres of petrol.

Was that correct? That makes it twice the price of the Castrol (I think it treats 250 litres per bottle) and I thought the Castrol was a bit pricey!

The Castrol one came top in the MIRA tests...
http://www.castrolclassicoils.co.uk/valvemp_new.htm

but I use it because it's available at Halfords, and they open late, including Sunday afternoons, so there's little chance to ever get caught short.

One thing that is rarely mentioned is that petrol station LRP could contain anything or nothing, as it had no proper spec and it was a DOT screw up to let it carry on like that. Generaly if you use a lead-replacement you should use the same type and never mix them!! mixing between the different types can be counter productive

Follow the link below and click on fuel additives if you are interested and it also states what type they are.
http://www.fbhvc.co.uk/

There's also a 5th option! 1 tank in 4 of leaded petrol!!
Leaded fuel is resticted to 0.5% of total fuel sales but is still available. If you are lucky enough to live within a few miles of one of the suppliers, it is worth considering, however I expect it is much more expensive than using an additive.
You can use the same FBHVC link and click on leaded petrol to get a list of garages that still supply it.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:43 am

The allowable emmissions for a car the age of a Minor are

just a visual - if it doesn't make clouds, then it should pass.
I've had modern cars that made plenty of smoke but passed the emmissions as oil smoke affects one of the measured items, but for non-cat cars the levels are quite high.
On the basis that a slightly smoky modern car can pass on the electronic emmisions tester, a slightly smmoky Minor should pass easily on the visual.

If you ask the MOT man nicely he might do the emmisions test for you and give a printout. These are nice records to have over a period of many years and if you get burned valves, you will see higher hydrocarbons (unburnt petrol) on the test results. That would probably suit someone like Gareth who worries a lot ;-)

Post by **salty_monk** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:06 pm

The Castrol additives are by far the cheapest for the amount of petrol that they treat to my knowledge & are the most easy to measure due to the "squeezy thing" that Ray has already mentioned.
I've used Millers too (at more than £3.50 a bottle... it was a rip & cause the bottle's black you can't even see how much you are using!)
If you are tight go for the one without Octane boost £6 to treat 250 litres (as opposed to £10) & have the ignition retarded slighty to stop it pinking...

Post by **rayofleamington** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:16 pm

If you are tight go for the one without Octane boost £6 to treat 250 litres

If you are even more tight, buy it online, eg. the one without octane booster is 6 bottles for 29.95 (free postage) - thats about 10,000 miles of unleded motoring, and you don't even have to drive to the shops to get it....

Post by **Matt** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:34 pm

Talking about exhaust gas levels i can get access to an exhaust gas tester just before the london to brighton, should be interesting....

Post by **Kevin** » Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:52 pm

should be interesting....

What to take you own Gas measurement