more on the saga of the brakes... it wasnt the calipers!

Post by **badfelafel** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:30 pm

collected the minor from the garage this afternoon. They were very pleased, having diagnosed the sticking brakes problem, by fitting new calipers (and pads while they were there)

problem is: the brakes still stick!

drove home (via B+Q) and as i drove i noticed that
1. the brakes remained applied, and
2. i could smell them

they applied strongly enough that i could stop on quite a steep hill and the car would not roll...

perhaps there was a problem with a caliper (will never know, as the garage exchanged it)...

Post by **jonathon** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:29 pm

So has the original o/s problem been transfered to both now ?.Was it originally a problem with both but only diagnosed on the o/s?.
If the system has been bled correctly then I go along with BM's thought of it being the m/c. Who converted the car to discs, can they not shed any light on the problem. How long were you driving the car with discs before the problem showed itself or were they always dragging. If they have performed normally up to the MOT then I'd not say it was the m/c

Post by **badfelafel** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:30 pm

not sure that the problem was one sided in the first place... it has never felt that the car has been pulling to one side (isn't that what I'd experience if one side's caliper was sticking?)

The problems only appeared (as far as I noticed) after we changed the engine, and I thought that the engine was waning after a bit! Didnt realise it was the brakes sticking.

I mentioned it to the garage after the MOT, thinking it was the engine, and they then noticed that the brakes were sticking!

So what next? New master cylinder?

Post by **jonathon** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:02 pm

No , not just yet. Can you describe the components in your brake system,ie servo, header tank and the way they have been plumbed in.
If the m/c has not been modified by the removal of the top hat seal then this is an easy task to perform.

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:18 pm

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:49 pm

Barry - I have PMd you on this - I'm sorry to hear the new calipers haven't worked - I never thought it was the calipers because we were easily able to man-handle your car out of the garage and there was no 'sticking' then. Fairly sure in the past the calipers must just have been 'sticky' enough to resist the extra pressure I'm sure it's the master cylinder seal - can someone post up a complete 'method statement' for Barry of what to do to remove this seal - including removal and refit of master cylinder. OR - does anyone do a service xchange master cylinder with new seals fitted - and the extra seal removed ?

Post by **jonathon** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:41 pm

BM why didn't you say that you had first hand knowledge of this problem, might have saved a lot of time and effort in trying to get to the facts of this case, which have been just a tad muddled.
Modified m/c's are available over the counter ,but I'm not allowed to advertise who it may be.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:55 pm

No - I don't have any first hand knowledge - only what has been put up on the website thread - but many weeks ago when I helped Barry change his engine - there was no caliper sticking then - and I reiterated that many times in the current thread. You and others got it in your heads that it must be the caliper - I was always 99% certain that it was NOT! This is the main reason I advocate big drum brakes for Minors - they are SO much easier to install!!! It seems obvious to me that whoever fitted these discs (before Barry's time with the car) just didn't bother to do the master cylinder work - and perhaps the calipers /pistons/seals were a bit sticky and were able to resist the pressure - perhaps they have always dragged hence the various engine problems with the car in the past! It's been struggling against the brakes!

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:55 pm

Disc kits from suppliers that *I'M* not allowed to mention include the instructtions. I'm still trying to dig out a copy of them - but the 'somewhere safe' I'll have put them is safer than I thought

Post by **bmcecosse** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:59 pm

Aye - I've got many a 'safe' place myself - some are so safe I haven't re-discovered them in 30 years, although I did recently uncover some very valuable Cooper S parts I made 'safe' OVER 30 years ago!!

Post by **jonathon** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:15 pm

I think that the info supplied has been misleading, giving rise to my asking for the exact symptoms and how/when they presented themselves.
The line we have been given is that only one caliper was faulty, in which case the m/c could not be an issue, however now we see that both brakes have been a problem, so yes one is led to believe that the m/c could be at fault.
Disc brakes are a very simple modification to install. There is nothing alien to the minor DIY'r in their fitting, so should be able to fit modify and bleed in 4 hours.

Post by **bigginger** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:15 pm

If I can do it, after all, it really can't be too hard

All the usual warnings about NOT playing with brakes unless you're SURE you know what you're up to apply, natch

Post by **badfelafel** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:01 am

it was the garage that identified one caliper only... and i believed them!

Post by **paulhumphries** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:31 am

I'm surprise nobody else has already said it but go back to the garage.
This is a Trading Standards etc type problem.
You paid them to do a job which they haven't done.
They misdiagnosed a problem and fitted unnecessary parts (calipers) which weren't needed.

Think of it like this.
If it was the seal left in the master cylinder then the garage should have been able to remove it in, say, 1 hour with the bill being just that - 1 hours labour and brake fluid.
Have a look at your bill and see cost of calipers and labour charges.

Paul Humphries.

Post by **jonathon** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:00 pm

If the car failed the mot on the o/s caliper it would have been as a result of their brake testing machine detecting drag on that side.It would seem that no problem was seen at the n/s otherwise it would have been mentioned on the report.
So first port of call seems to have been eliminate the the possibility of a damaged flexi pipe, but to no effect leaving the notion of a failing caliper.
Now unless the garage are familiar with the ins and outs of upgrading to discs ,they would have no reason to check the m/c as the n/s caliper was working (?)
Its unfortunate that its seen as misdiagnosis as we still are not sure of the actual problem, they just did what they thought was the correct route of repair, the customer instigated the fitting of the other caliper.
They have done the job , but as you say Paul the issue has not been resolved. So just take the car back and ask if they can check out the m/c, so long as they are made awear of the modification required. This info has been PM'd to Barry.
Now the garage are perfectly within their rights to charge an hourly rate for their labour, but they were not working on a standard car, and might not have been familiar with this disc modification. Unfortunately, but correctly they have followed the correct coarse of investigation, which attracts a hefty bil. I do not see them as 'the bad guy's' they are just trying to sort an unfamiliar problem. If it is the m/c then this will attract its own labour charge and quite rightly too. Even here on the forum opinion was divided, and still is until the problem is correctly diagnosed.

Post by **badfelafel** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:12 pm

In defence of the garage ... The garage were, in fact, very very nice

Run by older gents. They started by changing the flexi hose, and then suspected the caliper. They didnt charge me labour for this part of the work

Just the parts, and they thought they had fixed it. They did say (several times) that disc brakes were not standard. One of the mechanics himself runs a Minor