A few pick up questions.

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beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

les wrote:I had a rad panel for an early minor ( without the fresh air vent) which was original grey.
What sort of year was that Les?
I'm wondering if this is the kind of example where as things progressed, cars got older, and production costs had to be cut back a smidge, whether they were all shot over in black, rather than individually painted?
POMMReg
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by POMMReg »

Black with overspray around the grill/slam panel on the vans.
Further investigations uncovered it was an inside job!!
les
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by les »

Probably a '55.

beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

POMMReg wrote:Black with overspray around the grill/slam panel on the vans.
Cheers Chris.
beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

les wrote:Probably a '55.
Quite early then, comparatively.
IaininTenbury
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by IaininTenbury »

Finally got chance to look at the original 65 saloon and it is black, probably satin, certainly not very shiny but the slam panel is body colour... Exactly how this was done re masking I couldn't tell without dismantling, but presumably the panels were supplied in black and then the top was blown over in body colour at the paint stage on the production line.
cheers
Iain
Fairmile Restorations.

'49 MM, '53 convertible, '55 van, and a '64 van.

Marina p.u., '56 Morris Isis Traveller, a '59 Morris JB van, a'66 J4 van, a '54 Land Rover, Land Rover 130, Renault 5, '36Railton, '35 Hudson, a Mk1 Transit and a Sherpa Camper...

A car can be restored at any time, but is only original once!
beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

Thanks for all the replies, seems like we have a pretty convincing argument for a black front panel with the slam panel in body colour.
Things are progressing slowly, I haven't had much time to spend on the pick up, but a bunch of chassis stuff has been painted, more still to be done.
One more detail that has cropped up, what colour are the tilt hoops? I bought a copy of Ray Newell's Original Morris Minor (thanks for the tip Les) which is great and verifies a lot of details, but in there one of the featured pick ups has grey hoops, one has black.
Also what about the fuel filler tube cover? Again one pictured is black, the other body colour.
IaininTenbury
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by IaininTenbury »

Yes, theres a few variations in the OMM not all of which are explained.
A factory photo in Jon Pressnall's book of a 948 pickup clearly shows the filler cover in black, though this does have the steel floor panels in black too, a practiced which ceased in the early 60s. (It says Series II in OMM but Presnall's 'The Official Photo Album' shows an early 1000 with black floors...)

Common sense would say that as the filler covers would have been fitted after painting during assembly on the production line, that there would be a bin of black ones that the operative would just reach into and get one to fit to whatever coloured vehicle was being assembled. For that reason I would surmise that the grey pickup on page 105 of OMM is incorrect even though the restorer has gone to the trouble of painting the floor panels in black.

The green van in OMM on page 106 was originally supplied in grey primer and coach painted when put into service. The superb rebuild and paintjob happened much later and the interior finish is not representative of how it looked when new. (Dingy matt grey!). (There was an article on the restoration of this van in a classic car mag in the late 80s when I got my first van and it made a big impression on me as at the time the commercials were very much the poor relation in the Minor world).

As for hoops, I've never seen any that weren't black till you mentioned the pic in OMM showing a set of grey ones... I would assume black is correct and that the grey is an anomaly, either a production line quirk, or maybe in primer or just the wrong colour unless someone know different.
cheers
Iain
Fairmile Restorations.

'49 MM, '53 convertible, '55 van, and a '64 van.

Marina p.u., '56 Morris Isis Traveller, a '59 Morris JB van, a'66 J4 van, a '54 Land Rover, Land Rover 130, Renault 5, '36Railton, '35 Hudson, a Mk1 Transit and a Sherpa Camper...

A car can be restored at any time, but is only original once!
beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

IaininTenbury wrote: Common sense would say that as the filler covers would have been fitted after painting during assembly on the production line, that there would be a bin of black ones that the operative would just reach into and get one to fit to whatever coloured vehicle was being assembled.
That's my way of thinking. I just can't see anyone sanctioning the separate spraying of these in the various body colours, there's just no point in a commercial vehicle.
Your comments on the hoops are interesting as well.
POMMReg
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by POMMReg »

Use 'original' unmolested lcv's as reference - restorer's often forget lcv's were BUILT for commercial use!
Further investigations uncovered it was an inside job!!
beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

POMMReg wrote:Use 'original' unmolested lcv's as reference - restorer's often forget lcv's were BUILT for commercial use!
That's what I'd like to do, but I don't have any to hand. Hence posting on here... :)
davidmiles
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by davidmiles »

funny thing originality, if originality means as it came out of the factory, then thats only one aspect of the vehicles life, a vehicle like that is great for shows or a museum exhibit, but these things were designed for a working life on Farms,small businesses like landscape gardeners. they changed throughout their practical lives, so it's at what point in the vehicles working life are you depicting it in? Mine is as it was when it worked for the small engineering company that gave it to me. That was toward the end of it's life and many minor modifications were added to make preservation and working day to day easier.
smile, you never know, you might be winning.[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2ro3j37.jpg[/IMG]
beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

davidmiles wrote:funny thing originality, if originality means as it came out of the factory, then thats only one aspect of the vehicles life, a vehicle like that is great for shows or a museum exhibit, but these things were designed for a working life on Farms,small businesses like landscape gardeners. they changed throughout their practical lives, so it's at what point in the vehicles working life are you depicting it in? Mine is as it was when it worked for the small engineering company that gave it to me. That was toward the end of it's life and many minor modifications were added to make preservation and working day to day easier.
I'm really struggling to see what you're trying to say. Originality is a very very simple concept to understand, and there's no middle ground.

For something (a car in this case) to be in original condition, it must be as it was when it was new. Not after 20 years of successive owners have added bits, taken bits away, and generally screwed with it.

In real terms no restored car can ever be 'original' it's quite impossible to effect repairs to a vehicle, maybe replacing sections of bodywork, fresh paint, new rubbers and assorted mechanical bits, and then suggest it's original. The original bits have gone in the bin so at best what's left is a car that's been restored to a current condition which has (depending on what work has been done) the possibility of being 'like original' or very far from original.

These vehicles were like most other vehicles designed just to be used and then thrown away when finished with. As a result those that are left are generally in very poor condition, and bearing the scars (or open wounds) of not just the years of use and abuse on the road, but maybe years of not so good storage.
Worse still if said car has been the subject of an amateur 'restoration' such work will almost certainly have done more harm than good, and eradicated most if not all of whatever originality the vehicle had left. Those who really know what they're doing know that you're far better off finding a car that has had no previous amateur 'restoration' work.

In my opinion any work done in the name of restoration should be to as good a standard as possible, if corners are cut you run the very real risk of being little more than another mechanism to send the poor vehicle closer to it's doom. Patching over rot, is not restoration. If this means leaving work to someone who is capable of carrying out work to a better standard then so be it.

In addition to all this, if we want to be pedantic about it, any 'restoration' that is to anything less than 100% original specification (note I said specification, not condition) isn't a restoration at all. It's something else. A rebuild maybe.

Just for clarity, the aim of this pick up project is to end up with a vehicle that is rebuilt to a specification that whilst not 100% original, is (save for the aforementioned minor modifications) a vehicle of exceptional quality in 'near' original condition. Just because the owner and I feel that radial tyres, or an alternator are more practical than crossplies and a dynamo does not mean that any other corners should be cut. After all if something has to be painted, why not at least research the correct colour, as it was originally.
beelzibus
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by beelzibus »

Right, now I've got that off my chest, I have another thing I need to know in my quest for near originality. :wink:
What is the original tyre size for a 71 LCV, bearing in mind it's on the correct 4.5J rims. I will be fitting radials, but need to be able to work out the most suitable size .
Thanks in advance.
les
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by les »

If radials, the size is 155/14. ----- Now I don't know if I restored my van or rebuilt it! :D

IaininTenbury
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by IaininTenbury »

A very succinct and well put definition of restoration.
It is usual for restoration to be to referred to returning it to the condition and spec it left the production line. Others rebuild to a usable condition, or preserve or recreate some point of its working life. My own daily driver van had side windows fitted when it was a few years old. Whilst I've panelled over such windows on other vans I've restored to return them to factory condition, I'm happy to preserve mine with its extra windows showing it as it was at that stage of its life. (Its easier to reverse park too!) If I was fortunate enough to find a really sound original unrestored Minor, I would take care to preserve, or conserve rather than restore like a museum exhibit as theres so few vehicles left inthis condition.
Its all down to what you have and what you wish to acheive.

Orig tyre size for an 8cwt on 4.5 rims was 5.60/14 cross ply by the way.
Also I checked my 'unrestored waiting its turn project van' (however you wish to describe a wreck!) which although very rough is very original. This was supplied in grey primer so only the exterior got painted in colour by the first owner. The interior is all primer including the petrol filler cover! So was that a quirk of primered vehicles or does that cast doubt on petrol filler covers being always black.... :-?

And with this discussion of restoration qualities and specs, how should one restore a van that was originally supplied in primer? The visible primer inside is quite rusty as it obviously wasn't a good enough coating like a gloss. Should I ignore its primered history and just paint it all, or show it in primer and constantly answer questions about when will I paint it, or paint the exterior 'a colour' as the first owner would and matt lacquer the primer engine bay and interior? :o
And does anyone care? :D
cheers
Iain
Fairmile Restorations.

'49 MM, '53 convertible, '55 van, and a '64 van.

Marina p.u., '56 Morris Isis Traveller, a '59 Morris JB van, a'66 J4 van, a '54 Land Rover, Land Rover 130, Renault 5, '36Railton, '35 Hudson, a Mk1 Transit and a Sherpa Camper...

A car can be restored at any time, but is only original once!
POMMReg
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by POMMReg »

'Full nut + bolt restoration'

(Stainless steel nuts/bolts fitted)

Sob

Are NEW 7/16, ww 1/4 + 5/16 nuts/bolts available?
Further investigations uncovered it was an inside job!!
jaekl
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by jaekl »

Mine was CKD, what do I do? Drag a crate around?
Just restore it to whatever you like, as delivered to the first customer, most famous customer, to represent a particular factory picture, or something else. Just finish it and enjoy it.
POMMReg
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by POMMReg »

If you don't have the original shipping crate, import docs.etc. your vehicle's warranty will be null + void!

You may also face additional servicing costs - in excess of 40 shillings - and/or a 'new kids on the block' CD!

Mr.W.Indup
Further investigations uncovered it was an inside job!!
IaininTenbury
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Re: A few pick up questions.

Post by IaininTenbury »

jaekl wrote: Just restore it to whatever you like, as delivered to the first customer, most famous customer, to represent a particular factory picture, or something else. Just finish it and enjoy it.
Ah, common sense :D
cheers
Iain
Fairmile Restorations.

'49 MM, '53 convertible, '55 van, and a '64 van.

Marina p.u., '56 Morris Isis Traveller, a '59 Morris JB van, a'66 J4 van, a '54 Land Rover, Land Rover 130, Renault 5, '36Railton, '35 Hudson, a Mk1 Transit and a Sherpa Camper...

A car can be restored at any time, but is only original once!
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