Engine swap completed - now no clutch

Post by **adritch** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:14 pm

Picked up the missing piece for £4 this morning from Minor Parts of Oxford (can highly recommend them for help and parts).

All back together now. Getting the gearbox back on was a nightmare!!!

Clutch now seems to be working correctly, although haven't been for a drive yet. Took me all afternoon getting it back together.

Thanks for the assistance in diagnosing the problem. I'll let you all know if I get out for a spin tomorrow.

Adam.

Post by **bmcecosse** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:05 pm

Well done - especially getting the part you needed. And yes - gearbox refit IS a nightmare from below.

Post by **bigginger** » Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:13 pm

Hear hear - tried that once, NEVER again

Post by **HarryMango** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:10 am

I think I am a masochist then

- but have always found it easier gearbox out

Rog

Post by **bigginger** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:35 pm

Takes all sorts

a

Post by **adritch** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:55 pm

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Somethins still isn't right. I have a clutch, but it makes a horrible noise when relasing it. i.e. when setting off. It sounds like gears rubbing against each other.

Must admit that I am not happy. Really don't like the idea of taking the gearbox out agian.

I can change gear ok once moving, and I can sit in gear with my foot on the clutch, so it engages and disengages but makes a really nasty noise when pressure is applied.

There's 1.3mm of friction plate before the rivets, so that's not the problem.

At a bit of a loss now.........

Post by **rayofleamington** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:22 pm

not 100% sure I understand your description. Is the problem when you are starting to move?
You mention noise when releaseing but also noise when pressure applied - do you mean when starting to transmit torque?

If so do you also get vibrations on the pedal?

Post by **adritch** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:20 pm

Ok, shall try to explain bit better.

The noise is worst when I'm starting to move from stationary, and the noise starts when the clutch begins to bite, which I guess is when it starts to transmit torque.

Does it a bit when changing gear once moving, but obviously less use of the clutch so much less of an issue.

Yes, I guess vibrations on the pedal, but vibrations through the whole car too..........

Does sound like a metallic noise.

Depressed. Hoping the little car elves come out during the night and make it all better......

Post by **kennatt** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:16 am

hate to be negative but had the same problem on my splitscreen some years ago it was exactly the same type of noise. Sorry but it turned out to be the clutch cover ,the springs had sort of weakened I guess,a new cover cured the problem. The noise was greatest just as I pulled off.I supose because that was when there was the greatest torque on the clutch.Not so noticable once on the move and just changing gear. Hope this isn't your problem after all the trouble you have had. Good luck

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:17 pm

Is there definitely an oilite bush in the crank tail - for the gearbox input shaft to fit into ? If not - the shaft will be free to wobble about - which may well give these symptoms.

Post by **adritch** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:36 pm

You've lost me there BMC. Can you say that again in words of one syllable?

I'm assuming from your post that there should be a bush in the centre of the fly wheel that the splined shaft sits in. Am I right in my interpretation?

If so, absouletly no idea. Didn't check the fly wheel at all after taking the clutch off. Think I'm about to learn another lesson.

Guess it'll be another gearbox out session then.

Grr.

Post by **chickenjohn** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:42 pm

Is this whats otherwise known as the spigot bush???

Post by **adritch** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:21 pm

That's what I was going to say based on my now extensive

research.

I assume it's number 11 on this diagram:

http://www.morris-minor.co.uk/p42.htm

Or this part here:

http://morrisminorspares.co.uk/shop/pro ... 2c0f6020e8

Note, nice roller bearing version available for ESM.

I presume there is no way of knowing without taking the gearbox and clutch off?

Can I poke something through the bell housing casing through the hole on the n/s bottom and try 'waggling' the splined shaft and see if it moves? Would that then show if there is or isn't a spigot bush?

Post by **chickenjohn** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:34 pm

Yes, i have at least one of these in my spares kit

, I'm worried I'll get it confused with the pedal shaft bronze bush, or are they the same???????

Post by **rayofleamington** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:27 pm

the pedal shaft bronze bush, or are they the same???????

don't know if the spigot bush is the same as the clutch relay shaft bush, but in the past (on a Sunday

) I ended up using a pedal shaft (top hat) bush - which was the correct ID and OD... but I had to remove the top hat flange.

anyway - back to the question

The only time I've seen this kind of problem was due to a faulty clutch pressure plate. Hence asking about pedal vibration...
If the centre piece that sits against the carbon bearing is not level then you get vibrations through the pedal and some funny noises too.
There are a few possible causes for it not to be perfectly level - but most likely is a faulty pressure plate assembly (spring broken or coming loose, or something else broken or not assembled correctly).

Regarding nasty noises when in first gear (loaded) - this can be a gearbox bearing issue - however your symptoms point to the clutch (but not with a 100% guarantee)

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:46 pm

The bush is in the crank tail - not in the flywheel. Would be unusual for it not to be there! But absence would give these effects.
However - I agree with the idea that the problem is because the pressure plate is out of balance on the springs. When taken apart - as yours was - it needs carefully re-assembly with delicate measurements taken (it's all in the manual). I never imagined you would be able to get just the pressure pad and springs - it would have been so much better to get a good second hand pressure assembly. Dunno if it would be possible to 'adjust' it through the inspection holes in the gearbox - may be worth a try.

Post by **rayofleamington** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:51 pm

If it is assembled without the spigot bush you don't get these effects (I've had some that had no bush!) - you would need a damaged bearing in the gearbox and no bush for this to cause noise - however if driven for long enough without a spigot bush, the gearbox input shaft bearing will be cream crackered.

Post by **adritch** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:02 pm

Had another drive this evening. Still the same.

The nearest thing I can describe it as is that when I release the clutch and it starts to bite is sounds and feels just like to cogs being bought together, which grind against eachother until then are fully meshed. Once the clutch pedal is released then driving is fine.

Jacked the rear up so I could engange gear without moving, and although there is a slight noise when releasing the clutch, it is very slight as there is little load.

Guess I'll have to take the gearbox out, but when it's out is there anything I can check other than the spigot bush and clutch components?

Don't want to be doing this again in another week.....

Post by **bmcecosse** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:08 pm

Oh dear - I feel for you! I think it's time to throw in the towel - and get hold of a good pressure assembly and fit that! Do check there is a bush in there - but it's not something that can easily fall out!

Post by **adritch** » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:26 pm

Ok, gearbox is out again (hopefully for the last time), and it's fairly obvious what the nasty noise was.

See pics here - look for the shiny bits of metal:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/adman2206ClutchProblem2

So the clutch plate was fouling on the flywheel bolts. However, I followed the Haynes guide which said to reassemble with the longer splined hub pointing away from the flywheel. This I did, but I have to assume that the clutch plate was in the wrong way round.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Have they changed the design since the manual was written?

Not sure if it will show on the photos, but it's obvious that one side of the metalwork on the clutch sticks out more than the other. I'm assuming that this side should face away from the flywheel, even though on my clutchplate it's the shorter splined hub?

Finally, should I replace this now that the spring holders are worn down on one side from their contact with the flywheel bolts? Or will it be ok as it is.

Thanks,
Adam.

Good thing is it looks as though my spigot bush is there.

Morris Minor Owners Club

Engine swap completed - now no clutch

Engine Swap completed - now no clutch - Update