Custom and modified minors

[Cam]

But do the public want to see the best concours examples?

As for your question, perhaps users of the Messageboard would like to give their views?

Yes, I want to see concours examples, but also scruffy daily drivers and some modified and custom cars. But the extreme end of the customisation I can do without as some of these cars are not morris minors at all; with a custom chassis, different engine, suspension, steering, etc. They can be like a kit car with a Minor body plonked on the top! Although these cars are excellent in terms of engineering, they are not really Minors (in my view anyway). The line is very hard to draw, but I PERSONALLY would like to see less of these cars. I think the scruffy daily drivers deserve a bit more publicity as they are very often overlooked, but make up a large percentage of the ownership numbers. I like to see a good, honest well used car that's doing exactly what it was designed for: Being used!

[Kevin]

I am with Bill points of view, and also Cams point about the extreme custom scene as they have their own magazines and events anyway, the only problem with the average daily drivers (includes mine) is that they are great at outdoor shows but when joe public has to pay to go to a large show he is not likely to be too pleased to see an average bunch on the stand unless it fits in with the display theme, and its also murder to get help from within the local branches anyway if it wasnt for a dedicated few individuals most events wouldnt happen, and before I get shot at I quote from experience`s of my branches participation in the Alexander Palace Classic Car show.

[andrewsxt]

I don`t want to seem too harsh and i`ll probabley be blown down in flames but seen one concours seen them all, i mean, you can apply only so much polish and chrome cleaner.
I was sandwiched between a bunch of travellers at the national, all white, all pristine, all wonderful examples of the marque, but the owners could have swapped them all round while i was enjoying the falcon display and i wouldn`t have noticed, i appreciate the work, dedication, blood sweat tears and money that have gone into them but i just prefer the the ones with faded paintwork, a couple of oil leaks and a lot more character.

Andy

[jonathon]

Personally I believe that every aspect of the minor should be represented at this NEC show, with no preferance for any particular varient.
I do not understand why the Concours event has been dropped from the show. I can see that to some it would appear to be unrepresentative and probably elitist to hold this event within a show that should be representing the wide diversity of the marque.
I assume that the concours final has to be staged somewhere ,at some cost, so why not the NEC. The club should fund this event in full, thats not only the concourse but also the rest of the participants. This is surely a fantastic opportunity to show the general public how great and diverse the minor can be. I have just been approached to exhibit at this show as a trader, but at £680 per stand its a bit out of reach, but for the club I would assume that this was small change.
I feel that the classification of modified and custom need to be re defined. My K series conversions are classed as custom and as such would compete againt the likes of J beardmores wonderfull 'kit car'.
I feel that if you can swap a 1098 for a 1275cc motor then why not a 1800cc K series, its still a swap, likewise with the axles and brakes etc.
I also think that the display of minors needs a draw item, and this will be best served by the likes of either J Beardmores or Malcom Mottlers cars, rather than a representative, but not eye catching everyday runner.Although they should be represented
Should the club not employ someone to do a professional job of the shows it is invited to, or funds itself. I realise that most shows are organised by volunteers, but why, Its great that some folk can dedicate their time and energy but to be honest , the National for example is a dire event for all but the most ardent minor devotee or those who prefer to get lathered up listening to the out of date barn dance or the like. These events need refreshing and organising professionaly, with fair representation of every minor varient. By this I mean don't put the modified and custom out of site in the far corner of a field. This has happened for as many years as Ive attended the National both as trader and individual.

[andrewsxt]

the National for example is a dire event for all but the most ardent minor devotee or those who prefer to get lathered up listening to the out of date barn dance or the like. These events need refreshing and organising professionaly,

I would venture to suggest that most moggy owners like this type of show, moggy ownership for me is a genteel, rose coloured spectacle type of lifestyle and doesn`t involve tearing down the strip at santa pod.
Surely theres enough slick, organised motorshows already, please let us keep our homely, olde worlde, hankering after a bygone era type gathering.

Andy

[jonathon]

Who mentioned tearing down the strip at Santa Pod. I think that the rose tinted spectacle, olde word, homely,bygone era attitude will be the death of the minor.

[dp]

I also think it can only be good to show to the public all the aspects of Minors today. The more variety we present, the more likely we are to interest newcomers and remain a vibrant community.

I prefer not to draw any 'them and us' line between radically customised Minors and standard ones for three reasons:

Firstly, customs are not going to seduce potential enthusuasts away from concours; or daily drivers if that is their thing. Moreover they present the possibility of Minor ownership without many of the downsides that would otherwise deter new owners.

Secondly, much of the customization comes from the same impetus as everyday improvements. Nobody seems to have a problem with radials, improved seatbelts or unleaded heads improving safety or economics so why not safer suspension and brakes? Why not a more modern engine if it's cheaper to buy, more powerful and/or better on fuel than a reconditioned A series?

Thirdly, very few people are daft enough to take a really solid Minor and rip it apart to make a custom. Rather, it's some old nail that wouldn't be viable as a runaround or for Concours.

dp

[andrewsxt]

Who mentioned tearing down the strip at Santa Pod.

I did, thought we were talking custom, modified etc.

the rose tinted spectacle, olde word, homely,bygone era attitude will be the death of the minor.

served it quite well for the past 57 years, i think cars selling for anything upto 12,000 pound or more might be the death of the minor.

Andy

[dp]

Diversity of options will not be the death of the Minor

[andrewsxt]

Diversity of options will not be the death of the Minor

Very true DP, always been one for diversity of options, and open mindedness to other peoples likes and wants, i just like my minors original and my rallies homely. We`ll be having strobe lights and scantily clad women draped over bonnets next. Could be painful on a moggy

Andy

[jonathon]

Quite agree DP
Andy I was talking about the National Rally and its format not the distinction between modified and custom.
Yes but for nearly 20 of those 57 years it was sold as a new car. I'm not saying that you cannot enter your time warp era, and in some instances this can be a cosy place and a sanctuary from the modern world and its manic pace. However we must live in the current time, and I believe that the perception of the minor and its owners is done a great disservice by those unable to break the shackles of time.just look at the images touted as representing the minor owner, the district nurse, flat capped middle aged to elderly owner ,who enjoys nothing more than a picnic in a field. ( last one not too bad though) Where are the positive images for todays young drivers, just compare the image with two other motoring icons the Mini and the Beetle. The minor comes a poor third in appeal for fun ,individualistic motoring.
I don't know of many minors selling for £12,000, but those that do are selling at a fraction of the build cost. The reality is that more and more people are seeing the full potential for the minor in 'the modern world' and in some cases are prepared to spend their disposable income on producing an individual vehicle to their requirements yet retain the symbolic retro feel of the car. I feel that there is still a place for running a budget minor in standard or modified form, but the days of the survival minor advocated by the likes of C.Ware are long gone,unless you are blessed with the ability and time to do all of the work yourself.There is a place for the so called 'cheque book rebuilds' and its equally as valid as the ardent diy'r. I believe that most sensible minor owners are aware, that to have their car maintained or rebuilt will cost a substancial amount of money, after all the restoration process is exactly the same for an Aston Martin as it is for a minor. If folk wish to spend this money why should they be made to feel guilty about it, or scourned upon by those who choose not to.
With the amount of poor quality minors increasing, by which I mean those who year in year out scrape through the mot, it is this end of the market that is in danger of pushing up the lower prices of purchase, as they will soon disappear,having been written off as non viable projects. As the number of minors decreases then the only way for prices to go is up.
I think that the current prices advised for the different gradings of minor are totally unrealistic. If a customer has had a new floor ,wings,chrome,interior and respray for example the guide would indicate a resale price of less than a 1/4 of the build cost, tis madness and totally unrealistic.

[andrewsxt]

Where are the positive images for todays young drivers, just compare the image with two other motoring icons the Mini and the Beetle. The minor comes a poor third in appeal for fun ,individualistic motoring.

Why does modern = positive image, surely the majority of the 14,000 or so club members and probably thousands who aren`t, choose the moggy because it is old, i think the mini and the beetle appeal to different sensabilities, although i do like them both, and for me the moggy is fun, but then so are fishing and vegetable patches so that might say quite a lot about me.

If folk wish to spend this money why should they be made to feel guilty about it, or scourned upon by those who choose not to.

I would never do any such thing Jonathan, we`re just different ends of the same moggy spectrum

the district nurse, flat capped middle aged to elderly owner ,who enjoys nothing more than a picnic in a field.

Thats uncanny, it`s almost like you know me

Andy

[Cam]

Well, lots of diverse opinions there!

I agree that Jonathon's K-series conversion should be classified as modified and not custom. To me, custom is about body modifications and not hidden mechanicals.

I'd like to answer Jonathon's comment about:

Where are the positive images for todays young drivers, just compare the image with two other motoring icons the Mini and the Beetle. The minor comes a poor third in appeal for fun ,individualistic motoring.

I have (in the past) been involved with the Mini 'scene' and to be honest, the car attracted me to it, but what drove me away was the endless stream of baseball-cap wearing idiot 'boy-racers' who just wanted to drive as fast as possible and have pub meetings where they just got hammered. This is NOT my idea of a good time, so I had no more to do with it.

Also, a good friend of mine is into VWs. Beetles, campers, type 3s etc, so I have had some involvement there too and they generally seem to be either layed back hippy types or boy-racers again. This did not appeal to me either.

The Minor crowd however don't seem to be getting hammered all the time, playing awful loud music from their 1,000,000 watt ICE systems, getting drunk and churning up fields by handbrake turning on the camping site! They are much more civilised and that's why I like them and want to be associated with them.

The Minor attracts a different kind of person than the Mini or Beetle. A more subdued person generally that's quite happy with the 'living in the past'. To be perfectly honest with you all, if someone gave me the option of living in the 50s or today, I would jump at the 50s because I feel modern life has nothing for me (except the internet ). So people like me enjoy spending time away from it all amongst hundreds of like-minded people at rallies like the National. I agree that the music at the National is not exactly perfect but it's a lot better than the 'modern' talentless garbage. If they were playing 'gangster rap' at the National rally it would be totally out of place and I would not attend. I'm sure a lot of the older generation (majority of Minor owners) would follow suit and you would have less than 100 people attending which would be a complete disaster!

So, yes, live and let live, but be mindful that the majority of owners like the original cars too!

[plastic_orange]

[quote -scantily clad women draped over bonnets next]

Don't mention this please - got into trouble a while back for posting my minor with attachment (Shay Louise), and this post may further encourage me!!
If you wish a copy, I'll pm you.

Great discussion guys, but it's all been said before.
As you know I'm involved with a bike club - not shy or retiring types, go drag racing with car and bike, attend car events including Minor rallies, son is a moderator with a car club with a huge membership (hot hatches), and the funny thing is we all mix just great.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy banter about what's best, just appreciate every one is different.
A good car will be appreciated at any gathering whether modified or not, and people do genuinely acknowledge the work/mods that have been made.
However, I don't think the public would appreciate 'normal everyday cars' in a show they pay to attend - they want to be reminded how the cars looked when new, and also how they can be modified - I'm sure they would love to see the rustiest running example though, as I'd bet they could relate to that!!


Pete


Drag Racing Minor





Mildly customised (low rider) with through flow ventilation.

[Cam]

Yeah, actually that's not a bad idea for a judging category. I know some rallies have 'wreck of the rally', but how about a section for wrecks??

[rayofleamington]

scantily clad women draped over bonnets next.

next? surely we've had that already (P.O.)

[Kevin]

But do the public want to see the best concours examples? My own personal opinion is that there is nothing more boring than a line of pristine Morris Minors,

I don`t want to seem too harsh and i`ll probabley be blown down in flames but seen one concours seen them all, i mean, you can apply only so much polish and chrome cleaner.

Seeing the above couple of comments does grate a bit why do so many owners knock the concours cars apart from the condition they are also good reference points for newer owners to check on things and most of the concours people are very helpful when advice is needed also would you pay to go to an indoor show full of condition 2 & 3 cars of all makes, also I have yet to hear the concours people have a real dig at other owners for choseing to run a modified car or of having a condition 2 run around.
And before you ask I run a condition 2 car and dont aspire to a concours car, I just love them all even the Custom ones even though I dont want one of those either.

climbs off soapbox puts on flack jacket and waits for the fallout from the owners that know what is best for everyone else even though we are all individuals with differing tastes and requirements.

[andrewsxt]

we are all individuals with differing tastes and requirements.

Which i think this particular thread demonstrates quite well.

I should probably take a look before I make this statement but i`m willing to bet that the mini and beetle forums, if indeed there are any, aren`t this vibrant or indeed FUN.

Andy

[iwsmithy]

Perhaps it is the diversity of the views expressed within this string that keeps the MMOC going, in that there is something for everyone, be it the gentile life, or tearing down a strip. I hope that when people see a custom car, they appreciate the work, effort and engineering that goes into it, equally, a concours car need work and effort to keep it in the condition that concours represents. Daily drivers often need just as much effort to keep them on the road through rain and shine. Perhaps the key is to get a happy medium that encompases all of these types of cars?

You can please some of the people some of the time......................

[wibble_puppy]

Perhaps it is the diversity of the views expressed within this string that keeps the MMOC going, in that there is something for everyone

yeah, i agree with that

from my personal pov i like seeing all the different types of minor at shows - early, late, concours, workhorses, modified, custom, and most important to me - plenty of VANS

the nice thing about minor owners is that they tend to be nice people - interesting, chatty and fun without tearing about shouting all the time.

*ponders* maybe the greatest thing about the minor is that it does lend itself to such a very wide variation of "interpretations" - from jazzy to district nurse?

juliet xxxxx

ps very interesting thread, thanks everyone