Welding: Gas versus Gas-Less

[rogerowen]

I'm generally satisfied with the results of gassless, but decided to stick to proper Machine Mart wire afer finding a cheaper brand bought on the 'Bay just seemed to evaporate in use.

Right, that's 2 people in favour of gas-less and no pro gas comments. So having a bit of a re-think.

Hobbyweld gas seems a more viable option than BOC, but still kicks in a bit pricey. £50 deposit, £30 a fill, £40 for a regulator (the one I bought off Ebay for £15 has a too small outlet port to fit the adapter I have to fit to my Mig) - all this + the dreaded VAT and a 35 mile round trip to collect the gas.

Hmmm... Finances dictate that I revert to gasless.

Aha, new gasless wire from Ebay arrives this morning - less than 1/2 full of wire! The reason? It is wound onto a very heavy metal spool!!
Last one I had (also .45 kg) came on a plastic spool - so therefore much more wire.

[tysonn]

Beg steal or borrow an empty pub gas CO2 cylinder.They come up on Ebay,Gumtree,Freecycle or your local tip.Befriend a local pub landlord or someone who spends a lot in his pub and give him your empty and £20.The full bottle of CO2 will last you for ages and although the result will not be as good as Argon/CO2 mix it will be infinitely better than gasless wire.Anyone that does any amount of welding will tell you the same.Have a nosey round any local fabricators/restorers and look at what they use.I've yet to come across a pro that uses that stuff.

[George Smathers]

I find that gas makes far better welds unless you are outside and it is windy. If you are draining your bottle too fast I would check the pressure flow setting; it may be set too high. You can also experiment and turn down the pressure until the point where your welds deteriorate as oxygen starts to react.

George

[tysonn]

I agree that situation would suitable for flux cored wire.You can usually improvise some sort of windbreak though.

[bmcecosse]

I found the gasless was MUCH easier to use - and for what I wanted to do - it was perfectly satisfactory... I was forced to go 'gas' when the gasless wire ran out. I found it much less forgiving - and the welds (for me) were poorer... But of course - professionals use gas and heavy gauge wire that feeds through faultlessly and never ever sticks in the nozzle.......... On clean metal, downhand, I can run perfect welds with gas.....lying under the car - on less than perfect metal - the ease of use of the gasless wins easily.......

[rogerowen]

Cutting discs are thin - grinding discs are thick! I have two grinders - one loaded with cutting disc and the other with grinding disc. These work well for me - packet of 3 for £1.99 in local Asian furniture shop!! http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blackspur-Met ... 4844fa9ab1

Ah, I've googled it and I now can see the difference between cutting and grinding discs. What I thought were grinding discs must have been thick 'cutting' ones. I also gather that 'flap discs' are popular for weld dressing. I've just ordered a pair of 40 grit for £3.50 inc post.

[bmcecosse]

Not so sure about the flap discs - let's see a link? I have some - but saved them for a better use - grinding disc was working well for me...... Flap disc is more for 'sanding' I think...

[tysonn]

Flap disk is better than the grinding disk in some cases.Its easier to get a smooth transition between the weld and the existing panel in a similar way to flatting filler using a rubber block,less easy to grind the good metal away.They come in all the standard abrasive grades.

[rogerowen]

Not so sure about the flap discs - let's see a link? I have some - but saved them for a better use - grinding disc was working well for me...... Flap disc is more for 'sanding' I think...

Here you go;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh5X-fFN ... detailpage

[bmcecosse]

This is the wire I have been using - works well and the 'price is right' with free delivery. I didn't reverse the polarity of my machine - frankly couldn't see any easy way to do it......not sure if that really makes any difference. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-9MM-X-0-45K ... 4174f516c9

[estwdjhn]

Speaking as someone who makes a living by welding and similar trades.

1) Gasless wire is rubbish.

2) Really cheap migs are also rubbish.

Combining the two it will be near miraculous if you manage to get a decent weld.

Don't get me wrong - we all have to start somewhere - I bought a clarke 160A mig and gasless wire when I first tried mig welding. The gasless wire got ditched quite quickly in favour of a pub gas bottle (not least because a 5kg spool of normal wire was about the price of 0.45kg of the gasless stuff). Then I migrated to a small argoshield type bottle (mainly because scrounging pub gas off landlords proved more trouble than I could be bothered with).

When the clake mig finally blew up (after a lot of years of abuse), I replaced it with a £600 inverter rig from IFL, which has proved to be one of the nicest "affordable" rigs I've ever used (The machine I regularly use at work was about £2500, and our nicest mig set was nearly £7k). The difference in weld quality between poor wire on a poor machine and decent wire in a decent machine is unbelievable. Get the settings right (it's all about listening for that sizzling noise while adjusting the wire speed - I tend to strike up on a bit of scrap with the wire speed set fast, and reach round while welding to turn the knob down till it flows nicely), and have a machine with a good wire feed, and most of the time it's more like using a hot glue gun than welding...

Incidentally, my comments about flux cored wire are directed at the gasless stuff. I use proper flux core (the stuff that still needs shielding gas) at work on heavier metal sections, and it's brilliant stuff for very strong and fast welds - however it's completely unsuitable for any sort of car repair type use (unless it's a tank you drive!).

[tysonn]

There you go!Nothing better than the words of an expert!

[rogerowen]

This is the wire I have been using - works well and the 'price is right' with free delivery. I didn't reverse the polarity of my machine - frankly couldn't see any easy way to do it......not sure if that really makes any difference. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-9MM-X-0-45K ... 4174f516c9

Thanks for the wire recommendation - I'll give it a try.

[rogerowen]

Speaking as someone who makes a living by welding and similar trades.

1) Gasless wire is rubbish.

2) Really cheap migs are also rubbish.

Combining the two it will be near miraculous if you manage to get a decent weld.

Don't get me wrong - we all have to start somewhere - I bought a clarke 160A mig and gasless wire when I first tried mig welding. The gasless wire got ditched quite quickly in favour of a pub gas bottle (not least because a 5kg spool of normal wire was about the price of 0.45kg of the gasless stuff). Then I migrated to a small argoshield type bottle (mainly because scrounging pub gas off landlords proved more trouble than I could be bothered with).

When the clake mig finally blew up (after a lot of years of abuse), I replaced it with a £600 inverter rig from IFL, which has proved to be one of the nicest "affordable" rigs I've ever used (The machine I regularly use at work was about £2500, and our nicest mig set was nearly £7k). The difference in weld quality between poor wire on a poor machine and decent wire in a decent machine is unbelievable. Get the settings right (it's all about listening for that sizzling noise while adjusting the wire speed - I tend to strike up on a bit of scrap with the wire speed set fast, and reach round while welding to turn the knob down till it flows nicely), and have a machine with a good wire feed, and most of the time it's more like using a hot glue gun than welding...

Incidentally, my comments about flux cored wire are directed at the gasless stuff. I use proper flux core (the stuff that still needs shielding gas) at work on heavier metal sections, and it's brilliant stuff for very strong and fast welds - however it's completely unsuitable for any sort of car repair type use (unless it's a tank you drive!).

Then - I'm doomed! Lottery win might help though! Thanks for the tips - I will practice like crazy.

[chickenjohn]

Adams gas are only £22 for a re-fill. I'm lucky in that they are based only 7 miles from my workshop.

[rogerowen]

Adams gas are only £22 for a re-fill. I'm lucky in that they are based only 7 miles from my workshop.

Is that for the 9 litre size? Is that Argon mix? I'll have to see what their deposit is.

[chickenjohn]

They are the bigger CO2 bottles. I get through quite a few at the workshop.

[bmcecosse]

We all know 'gasless' MIG welding is rubbish - I found it much easier to use and perfectly satisfactory for the job I needed to do. And on clean metal - downhand - it makes a very nice smooth weld too. We all have to make do as best we can with the equipment we can afford.......
Note - the gasless wire I suggest is 0.9mm - so needs 1mm nozzle in the gun. It never once 'stuck' in the nozzle for me !

[rogerowen]

We all know 'gasless' MIG welding is rubbish - I found it much easier to use and perfectly satisfactory for the job I needed to do. And on clean metal - downhand - it makes a very nice smooth weld too. We all have to make do as best we can with the equipment we can afford.......
Note - the gasless wire I suggest is 0.9mm - so needs 1mm nozzle in the gun. It never once 'stuck' in the nozzle for me !

That's interesting about the nozzle size. Originally I was using .9mm Gasless wire (the reel that came with the set), and that seemed to work ok with a .9mm nozzle. When I tried the first gas wire it was .8mm and so I changed the nozzle to .8mm and I did get a few hic-cups with wire feed.

[rogerowen]

I'm going to run this up as a new topic as it's more of a scream for help than a simple debate. What on Earth is wrong with my welding? The wire is melting and sticking to the new metal plates but it's not sticking to the old metal. I'm cleaning back to good metal but my welds always end up looking like rabbit droppings! All and any advise appreciated. Photos to follow.