Welding Help

[chickenjohn]

Here's the link to my video about how I approach cutting with a hand-help angle grinder:

http://www.4shared.com/video/owqjs_LR/g ... afely.html

It's too big for YouTube, at almost 45MB, so it's being hosted at 4Shared, which is a cool hosting site. You can watch it at 4shared, or download it.The video is in wmv format. Post back if you have any problems, and I'll sort it out.

A few safety tips and pointers thrown in also. I checked around YouTube yesterday and found nothing I
thought was of any use to a novice. If anyone knows of any good videos about starting with an angle
grinder, perhaps they could post up links to them.


When I say "unpeded" in my video, please try to hear "unimpeded" .

It would be a good idea when using a grinder to use more safety gear as well as the gloves- than you showed on the video, such as :-
1) steel toe boots
2) dust mask
3) goggles / face shield
4) Overalls
5) ear protection! Grinders are VERY loud
6) Wear something to protect your head- baseball cap or flat cap etc

and of course gloves.

[Gurzle]

Here's the link to my video about how I approach cutting with a hand-help angle grinder:

http://www.4shared.com/video/owqjs_LR/g ... afely.html

It's too big for YouTube, at almost 45MB, so it's being hosted at 4Shared, which is a cool hosting site. You can watch it at 4shared, or download it.The video is in wmv format. Post back if you have any problems, and I'll sort it out.

A few safety tips and pointers thrown in also. I checked around YouTube yesterday and found nothing I
thought was of any use to a novice. If anyone knows of any good videos about starting with an angle
grinder, perhaps they could post up links to them.


When I say "unpeded" in my video, please try to hear "unimpeded" .

It would be a good idea when using a grinder to use more safety gear as well as the gloves- than you showed on the video, such as :-
1) steel toe boots
2) dust mask
3) goggles / face shield
4) Overalls
5) ear protection! Grinders are VERY loud
6) Wear something to protect your head- baseball cap or flat cap etc

and of course gloves.

Yes, it is good idea to use these safety items when using an angle grinder. My video wasn't about this, however.

BUT....

.....if you don't actually know how to use a grinder, and screw up, NONE of these "safety items" will save you from losing a finger, or a hand, or a head, or a life.

The video was not about safety gear, it was about how to use an angle grinder safely.

Your reply has led me to delete all my posts, to make the video unavailable, and to not bother trying to help people any more. It seems to be a kind of web disease.....let's ignore the actual topic and just nit-pick as we choose.


Mr Chicken.......could we perhaps see your video of how to use an angle grinder safely?

[Gurzle]

Quoting myself:

.....or a head, or a life..........

Well.....skip the "or" here..........

[Gurzle]

The video is here:

http://www.4shared.com/video/dTdbRcZH/b ... reful.html

I think it's worth watching.

I used a 2mm cutting disc, to slow down the process for demonstration purposes, and recommend your starting off with a disc of this thickness. Once you are comfy with this thickness, you can really enjoy using a 1mm disc!

Brace yourself!

Literally!

[Gurzle]

I've had a load of my post deletions deleted, and I fully understand why.

But....

I do not understand why this forum shows almost no interest in angle grinder technique.

Post after post after post on what you should wear.

Fair enough.

But jack-all on what you should actually do.....

I despair.

[Gurzle]

....so....

....let's call it "war".....

Me....

....against the............apathy?

Like.....

...if you wear goggles and ear-protectors, you'll be okay.

YOU WILL NOT.

YOU WILL BE OKAY ONLY IF YOU HANDLE THE DEVICE CORRECTLY. NOTHING WILL PROTECT YOU FROM A FLYING ANGLE GRINDER.

NOTHING WILL PROTECT YOU FROM THE BITS FLYING FROM A FRAGMENTING DISC. IF YOUR FACE IS COVERED, YOUR UPPER THIGH MIGHT NOT BE.


GET REAL.


I AM TOTALLY SICK OF READING THAT PEOPLE WILL BE OKAY IF THEY WEAR GOGGLES AND EAR PROTECTORS.


THEY ARE NOT ENOUGH!


GOOD TECHNIQUE IS THE BEST PROTECTION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


GOD HELP ME!

AM I MAD?

ALONE WITH THIS?

ANY BRAINS OUT THERE?

[Gurzle]

The previous post.....

THAT

is my point!

[LouiseM]

No need to shout

I do not understand why this forum shows almost no interest in angle grinder technique.

Post after post after post on what you should wear.

Fair enough.

But jack-all on what you should actually do.....

Well the original poster asked for advice on what sort of welder to get and how easy it is to learn the basics of welding rather than specific advice about angle grinding. He has been given suggestions about makes of welders and advised to visit the mig welding forum, which contains a wealth of information relating to welding techniques. At the end of the day this is a Morris Minor forum (rather than a welding forum) and people try their best to offer help and assistance to others and answer their queries as best they can but not everyone has the same level of knowledge or experience on specific topics.

Obviously safety is paramount when working on cars so it's good that yourself and Chicken John have highlighted these issues. Sorry if the response to your video wasn't as you would have liked (you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into making it) but messageboards are where all sorts of comments are posted and you'll see from other threads here that there are a wide range of opinions expressed, and not everybody agrees or has the same view on things.

So welcome to the messageboard, and feel free to contribute as much or as little as you like. As already stated, everyone tries their best to answer queries and help other Minor owners, whatever the topic.

....let's call it "war".....

Me....

....against the............apathy?

No need for war. This is just a Morris Minor forum where people try to help each other so peace is preferable

[chickenjohn]

Again, if you go on a restoration course, such as the excellent course run at Maidstone, Kent, Oakwood park college, they will show you how to use all the equipment needed for classic car restoration, safely.

I'm sorry if I inadvertently upset you "Gurzle", you seem to be a well meaning chap who has concerns for everyone's safety which is a great thing. My feeling is that some things are best taught in person, and preferably by an experienced tutor who is qualified to teach these techniques and how to use the equipment safely.

You are right of course, it is very important to use tools properly and safely.

regards
"Mr Chicken"

[Gurzle]

I'd decided at the outset that I'd throw a hissy-fit and pull my posts if I got a response pertaining to safety gear.

Why?

Check this before reading on here:

http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/worksafe/ ... nders.html


To bring attention to this post you're reading now....

.....because I have very strong feelings and opinions about grinding safety. And if someone asks about welding help, that must include grinder help, as it it not possible to weld without a grinder.

The last time I was in hospital to have a bit of metal pulled out of my eye (and I had been wearing all the safety gear), I asked the nurse if they got many accident cases related to the use of an angle grinder.

"Oh, two or three a day," she replied.

Two or three a day? I was shocked. At that rate, there are hundreds of grinder accident cases every year, at just one hospital.

Do the maths for the national situation.

Frightening.

Now, go to any forum to do with car restoration and welding, and look for posts from beginners seeking advice. In rolls the advice........goggles, mask, face visor, ear protectors, gloves, apron, steel-toe-capped boots............but, as far as I've seen, absolutely nothing good on how to actually use the grinder.

The danger, as I see it, is that novices are being lulled into a false sense of security. They get all the safety gear, and might possibly be thinking that using it produces some kind of invisible force-field which will protect them from every adverse eventuality.

Not so! Absolutely not so.

The safety gear is a must, of course - but this only minimizes the danger, and in no way eliminates it.

Other issues.....

Simple advice is lacking on the web. For instance:

Limit use of the grinder to five minutes, with a fifteen minute break between grinding/cutting sessions.

Why?

Why not?

Organize your work schedule around this. Grind for five minutes, them go an scrape some muck off a back axle. Grind again, then have a cup of tea in the fresh air. There is no point at all in grinding solidly for an hour.

And try this, frequently during the day:

Spread out the fingers of both hands, and tap your fingertips together. If you feel an odd, springy, bouncy sensation, it's time to stop for a while. Extended use of a grinder can lead to a condition known as "whitefinger"............Google around to learn more.


When I saw this video, I was horrified:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWrDCC8N4u4


So I posted it up, as an example of what NOT to do, and promised to make my own video about cutting technique. I did it the next morning, and posted it up (new link):

http://www.4shared.com/video/dTdbRcZH/b ... reful.html


Here is my beef, then......

When welding novices come into a forum and ask about welding help, nobody ever tells them to think very carefully before starting to do it. A grinder is essential, and it's a potentially lethal piece of kit. In rolls the stock advice.....goggles, ear protectors etc, and you're away.

I really do think this approach is irresponsible.

Take the young guy breezing through life on a winning smile. That winning smile could, God forbid, be transformed in an instant into a strange leer, which others find disconcerting.

That's how serious this angle grinder business is.

Really serious, and anyone thinking of having a go should be made aware of ALL the implications and dangers.

I was doing a bit of routine grinding this morning, to remove some blobby welding from a floor panel, from above. I was using a thick disk, I was comfortable, and life was sweet. Suddenly I felt the grinder snag and jerk. Nothing untoward happened, thankfully, but I stopped, unplugged it, and went to sit down. I tried to analyze what had gone wrong. I concluded that I had been thinking about something else as I ground away at the blob. My mind was not on the task, I was not concentrating enough.

I'm typing this post.......I could be in a hospital queue......or worse!

I think a solution to my concerns could be simple. I assume that moderators read every post, so, every time a post comes in from someone seeking help regarding anything which would involve the use of an angle grinder, the moderator could insert a "stock" post to alert the poster in question to the very real dangers that angle grinder use can pose.......a "proceed with caution at your own risk, if you decide to do this" kind of post.

A few seconds to do this only.............."You have been warned!"

To round off:

When you think about it, it is quite obvious why commercial welding services are very expensive. It is not because welding is difficult.

It is because it can be very dangerous!

In conclusion:

I'm not here to be popular.


I'm here to put the fear of God into you before you decide to proceed!


If you're a novice and have read this post, I'm happy. Take care!


PS:

Check the viewing figure for this thread, compared to other threads of the same age in 'Bodywork'. It's way ahead, by virtue of the title - "welding help". So anything we input here is being seen by a lot of people. I think we have to make sure it's all good.

________________________________________

Note to chickenjohn:

Nothing personal regarding your post and my subsequent actions. It could have been anyone......

________________________________________

Note to LouiseM

I'm sorry it looked like I was shouting.......

[chickenjohn]

I appreciate your concern! I myself have had a grinder injury and learnt from that.

That is why I always suggest a welding beginner goes on a college course and they will be shown how to use equipment safely at college.

[Gurzle]

I appreciate your concern! I myself have had a grinder injury and learnt from that.

That is why I always suggest a welding beginner goes on a college course and they will be shown how to use equipment safely at college.

The first part of the quote seems to be the norm, unfortunately. Same for me.

Re the second part of the quote....this was in fact the best advice to the OP.

No replies, however, mention the angle grinder as being an "issue" for serious consideration .......as ever, it is referred to merely as something which you need to put on the list of things to buy.

It's ironic, really. People post that safety equipment is important, but never (as I've seen) point out that the grinder is potentially the most dangerous tool in the workshop.

"Wear gloves, cover your eyes and ears and get on with it" is irresponsible advice, especially from those who know from personal experience just how dangerous a hand-held grinder can be.

I learned in this way. I got a grinder, and started with it. I suppose I was just lucky not to have done myself serious injury in the early stages of the learning curve.

Another thing...........

Nobody ever mentions this fact - using an angle grinder is bloody awful - it's very hard, dirty work, and mentally tiring. Even with the ear and hand protection, the vibrations rattle through to your teeth and bones. The physical effort required to control and manipulate this little beast is great. Very often one has to stay in an uncomfortable position for a spell. So, you get yourself into position having checked the power lead is in a safe place, and......."Oh, I've forgotten to plug it in". Back up, plug in and back into position. Ready now, for sure.....then you knock the face mask out of position, or your goggles steam up as your irritation increases. Once you feel irritated, using a grinder is the LAST thing you should do.....more chance of your cutting corners, taking risks, just to get finished.

So if you are thinking about diving in and doing your own welding, please take my points on board. You might spend a lot of money, and then hate the whole thing. Many people prefer to pay someone else to do it for them.

Look at it like this:

You are aged 25, and restoring a classic car which could serve you well for the rest of your life if you so desired, and looked after the car. You get a quote of 2,000 quid for the necessary welding.

Well, divide that sum by, say, 50 (the number of years you might be using the car) and it works out at 40 quid a year.....less than a pound a week.

This is almost free .

Think about it!

[chrisd87]

Going back to the OP's question, ahem...

I've recently purchased a MIG welder and have been doing some practice, after having practiced arc welding for a little while and become reasonably proficient. In some ways MIG is more difficult, and in some ways easier. Obviously there's more to set up on a MIG, and much more to go wrong on the welder. That said, for thin metal MIG is a joy to use compared to arc, with far less tendency to blow holes or burn away the edges of whatever you're trying to weld. Unfortunately it seems that with MIG it's quite easy to produce good-looking welds that are actually very weak when attacked with a hammer. Arc welds that are no good when tested tend to look rubbish, in my experience.

As for the machine, I decided to buy a fairly old but reasonable-spec Clarke. I figured that if necessary I can always replace any worn components (which there don't seem to be), and I'll end up with a decent welder. A cheapo welder will only ever be a cheapo welder, no matter how new or well looked-after.

[RobThomas]

B & Q were selling grinders with a variable speed dial on them that could be adjusted to run really slowly for odd tasks. I bought 3 with the idea that such a great idea might save my life one day. About £22 each. Light grey colour bodies. I don't thing I've ever run any of them at full speed and I keep one with a cutting wheel, one with a grinding pad and one with a cup wire brush.

[Gurzle]

B & Q were selling grinders with a variable speed dial on them that could be adjusted to run really slowly for odd tasks. I bought 3 with the idea that such a great idea might save my life one day. About £22 each. Light grey colour bodies. I don't thing I've ever run any of them at full speed and I keep one with a cutting wheel, one with a grinding pad and one with a cup wire brush.

An interesting grinder tip - thanks!

I don't really want to clog this thread up with much more on the subject, but here's a couple of tips:

After a grinding session, wash your hair before jumping in your nice enamelled bathtub - you can be sure that over time
your moving body will interact with all the particles of dusty metal washed from your body and grind away the shiny finish. Most of the metal dust seems to attach itself in/to the hair.The best bet is a shower, rather than a bath.

Also, be careful when wiping your face during work, especially when you're hot and a bit sticky - close your eyes and begin wiping away from them to make sure you don't rub in any metal particles. Shaving your eyebrows off as a safety measure is probably a bit extreme .

Although.....in theory, probably.......

[morris1961]

what a great idea!
might have to invest in one or two....

[Gurzle]

what a great idea!
might have to invest in one or two....

One or two what?

Shaved eyebrows?

[morris1961]

lol! no. not the shaved eyebrows!

[Gurzle]

That's a relief .

My apologies for hi-jacking your thread a bit, but I saw the thread in useful tips entitled "Wear eye protection when grinding", and it's chock full of smilies when folk relate their accidents!

It's a serious business this welding, because you can't do a good job without using a grinder at some point.

If a beginner can't manage enrolling into a welding course, it's probably not difficult to find a professional restorer in the area and ask if you can watch a grinder being used and get a few tips. I think most pros would be happy to oblige.

I still haven't found anything good on YouTube regarding angle grinder technique.

Good luck!

[morris1961]

hahha, thats fine
i'm glad you brought it to my attention! before you said all that stuff, i didn't really think about how i was grinding. Now you've made me think a lot more when im grinding. well yeah... i use my grinder almost every time i work on my car.
so thanks for brining it up!