More Taxes

[jonathon]

Don't forget that the MMOC is a member of the FBHVC which actively seeks information about legislation that may impact on historic & classic vehicles and campaigns / lobbies to influence the decision making process. Sandy Hamilton attends their meetings on behalf of the club so members are getting a say with regards to legislation that could effect Minor ownership.

I'm afraid this statement worries me more than any other on this topic.
It would seem that as members of this club we cannot express opinion or develop debate on issues such as taxes and scrappage when associated with Minors.
However we are expected to allow Sandy to represent our club when raising the exact same topics with the FBHVC. Now tell me how does Sandy decide what the members want, when no debate has been undertaken on our behalf.
Doesn't seem very democratic to me.
I'm not to sure either that this debate has decended inti party politics, or others asserting their doctrine. Its purely an adult discussion on an 'off topic' section of the forum, if you do not want to read it then do not look at it. 'Simples'
The very idea of taxing those who break civil law to pay for those most likely to have been victimised as a result of criminal law, seems a bizzare concept. Surely the penalty is proportionate to the crime, and to impose this tax is pure nonsence. Or maybe the polotitians who broke the law on allowances will also be targeted in this manner (I think not)

[carlosramalho]

Hi Friends,
Let's go to do a Deal:
You sent to Portugal your Mr. Brown, and we sent to you our Mr. Socrates, and you will see what is a democracie and freedoom and so on!!!

[mike.perry]

Is it actually a 'stealth tax' though or is it an increase in fines

It is not an increase in fines, it is a tax that is ringfenced.
If somone was mugged, burgled attacked etc. then they are a victim of crime. Who is The victim of the crime of overstaying a parking meter?
Whilst on the subject of parking, legislation was meant to have been brought in to curb the outragous behaviour of wheel clampers. Scotland has, I believe, banned them. England is still waiting for some half hearted attempt to restrict their legalized mugging by a few pounds.

[LouiseM]

It would seem that as members of this club we cannot express opinion or develop debate on issues such as taxes and scrappage when associated with Minors.

The scrappage scheme has been debated here quite frequently so it's wrong to suggest that members cannot express opinion or develop debate on such issues. But surely opinions can be expressed and debates developed without needing to resort to negative or derogatory comments about the Government, opposition parties or policies? Plenty of members here seem to be able to manage it and this is what I was getting at in my earlier post.

Now tell me how does Sandy decide what the members want, when no debate has been undertaken on our behalf

Surely all members want to be able to continue to enjoy their Minors (or other classics) without legislation preventing them from doing so - this is the aim of the FBHVC and the club has signed up to these aims by joining. Are you suggesting that Sandy doesn't want the same things? The club's membership of the FBHVC and attendance at meetings has been regularly mentioned within Minor Matters so anyone wishing to express a view about the topics covered by the FBHVC are welcome to contact the Club and in addition the FBHVC website also contains plenty of information with regards to the legislation and policies that they are concerned with.

(Incidently I have seen nothing from any official source to suggest that overstaying a parking meter would result in the proposed surcharge, just parking illegally eg causing an obstruction. Seems it might just be a bit of 'scaremongering' by some newspapers )

[jonathon]

My point about the FBHVC (of which I'm an independant member) was that you seemed to be saying that Sandy speaks for all of the Club, my question was how can he, when sometimes 'political' points are raised on topics concerning classics/Minors and are seemingly discouraged and the Club does not actively canvass opinion on such matters.
I agree with you Louise re political points scoring, but I see no evidence of this in this particular topic. But was it not the case that posts were deleted on the scrappage scheme for being political (not judging the moderation simply asking).
As for Sandy, I'm sure he is a fine ambassador for the Club, but its presumptious to assume that he represents all views held within the Club.or even the majority view, until this has actually determined.
If the FBHVC allow free discussion of 'political 'issues on their site then surely its not too much to expect the same on here, where we could formulate opinion and present it as a view of a % of the MMOC opinion.

[LouiseM]

Sandy represents the club at FBHVC meetings so my meaning was that the club (and therefore it's members) have an input into these meetings. I'm not suggesting that he could possibly know the views and opinions of all 13,000 plus members. Presumably as an independant member you put your own views forward at meetings?

I agree with you Louise re political points scoring, but I see no evidence of this in this particular topic.

I haven't said that there is. The initial subject of the thread has been somewhat taken 'off topic' by someone raising the subject of why politics can't be mentioned here. I thought that I had provided a reasonable and balanced response to the question but this has resulted in the suggestion that members aren't allowed to discuss and debate topics such as the scrappage scheme on here, which simply isn't true.

But was it not the case that posts were deleted on the scrappage scheme for being political

Posts are deleted for a number of reasons and the posters will be aware of these. Without knowing which specific posts you are referring to it is difficult for me to comment as I may have had no involvement in the matter. In any event I don't feel that it would be appropriate to discuss with you the reasons for another member's post being deleted. Sorry, I don't wish to appear unhelpful but I don't think that it would be right.

If the FBHVC allow free discussion of 'political 'issues on their site then surely its not too much to expect the same on here

They don't have a messageboard for discussions.

[jonathon]

My last comment then is, if one is a representative of a group or Club would it not be prudent to canvas opinion of the body 'one' represents, before inputing comment at meetings on behalf of that group. If not then surely he only represents Sandy and not the Club.
( I'm not saying he does a bad job at all , nor that he does not represent some opinion, which may find favour with the members of the MMOC.)

I saw the following as political points scoring, maybe an incorrect assumption.
'.....without needing to resort to negative or derogatory comments about the Government, opposition parties or policies?'

Fair comment re deleted posts.
My mistake over messagebords and the FBHVC

[StaffsMoggie]

The FBHVC do not represent those who use their old/classic car as their daily transport. (They have gone on record on this.) therefore the value of their opinion is limited.

As for political discussion, I see nothing in the website terms and conditions which bids to restrict it.

As I said earlier in this thread, this topic is relevant to all drivers

[mike.perry]

I find these topics a lot more interesting than "How do you check the points?".
As long as they do not degenerate into a slanging match (which is more than can be said for the behaviour in the chamber of the House of Commons, when more than six MPs bother to turn up), they provide a platform for a healthy debate on the important issues relevent to motoring and classic car ownership in particular.

[rayofleamington]

My point about the FBHVC (of which I'm an independant member) was that you seemed to be saying that Sandy speaks for all of the Club, my question was how can he, when sometimes 'political' points are raised on topics concerning classics/Minors and are seemingly discouraged and the Club does not actively canvass opinion on such matters.

If you want to talk to Sandy Hamilton, just pick up the phone - he's a very nice chap and I'm sure he's interested in all points of view from the club members. That's certainly not the only way to pass on comments though!
Making points on here and expecting them to be followed up to the FBHVC is not what the forum is for. There is no good reason to confuse forum rules with "club rules".
Club contact details are published in the club mag so that members can discuss their views if they feel it important enough. Also branch meetings are another forum for open discussion, and the club has deliberately put in place structures with area liaison reps and area meetings + a national meeting for branches to ensure that communication happens.
Queries raised in branches relating to the FBHVC have been and will continue to be passed along via the normal channels. I remember at least one AGM where Sandy had some updated feedback on a query that started at a branch.

Despite the many ways points can be raised to the club, there is rarely any voice of dissent - so where is this issue?? If the people who think something needs to change don't follow it up in the club channels then is it the club's fault or their own? TBQH I'll quickly get fed up of being the only person at an entire AGM who'll stick their hand up to vote against something.
In any big/old organisation, change will be slow, but when almost no-one asks for any change, expectations shouldn't be set high!

As for political discussion, I see nothing in the website terms and conditions which bids to restrict it.

Juyst to be mildly pedantic - this FORUM has terms and conditions for posters. These T&C's are specifically for the forum, not the 'WEBSITE' and certainly not 'the CLUB'. Mind you, if you try racist or abusive remarks at a club meeting I'm sure they'd be dealt with too.
In the UK, we have the remnants of "free speech" but the message board forum is not 'spoken' it is 'written' and published to the world by MMOC.

But was it not the case that posts were deleted on the scrappage scheme for being political

one of those deleted may have been mine (not that I remember much) but I expect it was politically and personally derogatory relating to Gordon ****. Us mod's are human too and are not 'above' being moderated

Who is The victim of the crime of overstaying a parking meter?

The local authority is the victim of unpaid fees, and I'm sure every penny helps when they're faced with cutting services to the public due to limited funds.
Disabled people become victims when the lazy and selfish people park in the wrong spaces.
I've personally been a victim of illegal parking (round a junction) where the reduced road space and limited visibility led to a crash, injuries and insurance premium hikes. The people who parked illegally had a company carpark to go to, but at busy periods, this meant a 'long walk' and thyey were too lazy/selfish to be bothered so they parked next to the company front doors on a T-junction
They had been warned many times by the companies bosses, but continued to park there even after an accident occured.
I have little sympathy for those too lazy to park safely.

Next time you're out on a Friday night I'm sure every single one of you will see people parked on double yellows or in junctions in front of a takeaway. I doubt they are bothered that it causes problems and risk of injury to others, because traffic wardens tend to work during the day, not at night.
Personally I'd tow away every single one of them, and within a few weeks, the roads would be a little safer.

[jonathon]

So, you are saying that the club activly seek opinion, on topics which can be relevant to dialogue with the FBHVC, from the membership, at branch meetings, area meetings.
If so then excellent, but as this message board has been likened to a 'branch' in itself, and in theory has a membership of over 5000, maybe of which 50-100 are active participants, could not opinion be expressd on here too , which can be harvested by Sandy, rather than him receive umpteen emails of phone calls.
I have no issue whatsoever, if what you say is true, simply I add my point above.
I think maybe you are not the only person who puts up their hand at AGM's Ray, several years ago many folk from this forum sought change to Club policy , me included re the traders group, so I don't think you are quite as exlusive as you imagine
Regarding making comment to the relevant people on certain topics, I have done this to 3 officials. none of whom have replied to my requests made between 3-4 weeks.ago, maybe longer.
I still have outstanding business dating back to an AGM set of proposals 3 years ago. So I do follow the correct , suggested path , but have very little faith in receiving a reply. I'm no longer bothered about the replies, as I have moved on, even if my issues still remain

[Blaketon]

The FBHVC do not represent those who use their old/classic car as their daily transport. (They have gone on record on this.) therefore the value of their opinion is limited.

I must say that they can be rather "Severe" when you question them on something; they seem to regard it as an impertinence. By contrast, when I put a query to FIVA, they were much more open and did not appear to be constricted by the old school tie.

However, FBHVC (Of which I am a member) are all we’ve got and I can appreciate that they are representing a minority, whom most politicians probably view as a convenient scapegoat. Having tried to raise the issue of the Historic Road Tax Exemption cut off date with the government, I fully understand how frustrating must be their job . That said, I sometimes feel they should be less “Apologetic” in tone, when they deal with the powers that be.

[rayofleamington]

so I don't think you are quite as exlusive as you imagine

Time will tell - the AGM 3 years ago did have a good show of active members with power of conviction but it's been a rarity and seems to have dissapeared.
I'm not knocking the 'quiet' members who attend the AGM - not at all! Everyone who makes the effort to attend to see what's going on and to be involved deserves a thankyou.
Change is slow in any large / well established organisation, so it needs a strong and consistent show of members to help drive it.

For Minor owners it is sad that the FBHVC has little or no interest in classics used as daily drivers, or in supporting the cause of 70's classics, however as they came about to champion the cause of Bentleys/Alvis/Bristols etc... I don't expect it to change.

[jonathon]

so I don't think you are quite as exlusive as you imagine

Time will tell - the AGM 3 years ago did have a good show of active members with power of conviction but it's been a rarity and seems to have dissapeared.
I'm not knocking the 'quiet' members who attend the AGM - not at all! Everyone who makes the effort to attend to see what's going on and to be involved deserves a thankyou.
Change is slow in any large / well established organisation, so it needs a strong and consistent show of members to help drive it.

Couldn't agree more Ray. trouble is there should be other routes to formulate opinion or change. I believe that this messageboard is such a platform, and indeed was 3 years ago with those commited to their cause, actually participating at the AGM.
Unfortunately no more than a handful of MMOC members attend the AGM, other than club officials /branch representatives. This is great for the 'establishment' who are certain that the current way of operating or policies have very little chance of being changed at the AGM.
However if issues, raised on both here and branches fail to receive significant backing then they do not deserve to succeed.
I remember 3 years ago and every year since then that we have made suggestions to each other about the current state of the national Rallies, yet none of this has been presented in a cohesive form to the AGM.
Maybe if they had and the money followed the 'will', then we/the Club could win an award for the best classic National.
On the other hand if there are no points to be raised by the messageboard or branches which call for change then maybe everyone is happy with the Club as it is, or maybe they have given up on the idea of change, or are simply not bothered ?

[mike.perry]

The normal system is to submit your question as a resolution and then turn up at the AGM and be prepared to stand up and deliver your argument, ignoring the groans from the people clock watching behind you.
Resolutions can be submitted by individuals or by Liaison Officers representing the views of their branch reps.
You can also raise points during the meeting which I did several times at the last liaison meeting / AGM.

[jonathon]

Agreed Mike, I submitted about six resolutions 3 years ago, which were greated by the 'groans' you mention. However the first resolution which was actually presented by three of us, took an awful lot of time up and subsequently my further points were glossed over of completely ignored (to this day).
Single proposals can be effective but I feel that if enough like minded folk turn up or sign a multi signatured proposal , it stands a much better chance of succeeding.
I'm amazed actually that the AGM are allowed as others I have attended required a minimum percentage of membership representation.
It would be good to have an agenda distributed for the AGM well in advance of the actual meeting, for those with points to make. Plus the distributing of the approved AGM minutes. (on line would do)

[rayofleamington]

Unfortunately no more than a handful of MMOC members attend the AGM, other than club officials /branch representatives.

certainly without the branch representatives, the numbers would be VERY low - the club does want more poeple to attend but I can't see any way of making it better. I was told that the branch liason and AGM meetings were combined as it was one way to get good attendance. With this format it gets representation to/from the branches at the AGM.
The website forum is becoming much like a branch, but i'd rather see it more informal without a committee etc.. Hopefully someone may start doing 'branch news' from the website, although they'd need to be able to find more ideas than I can think of!

[mike.perry]

The area liaison meetings and national liaison officers meetings have been cut from two to one per year to save money, which I was very much against.

[millerman]

Simple move the AGM around the Country, say Bristol area then the North, etc, etc. It would certainly make it much cheaper for members to attend AND HOPEFULLY new faces

[aupickup]

i would agree to move the agm around each year

also for some of the more southerly guys and gals that want to attend